En Passant,

Your first question relates to Tim Maudlin's initial critique, stating that "enforcing the global conservation [of energy] means that the theory is not local in Bell's sense..."

That merely reflected the fact that Tim does not take any challenge to Bell [about which he has written books and papers] as worthy of serious attention, because my Energy-Exchange Theorem [proved in the essay, but with one obvious typo] is not about global energy conservation, but about local energy conservation.

The precessing particle contains local energy of configuration that does not exist once the particle is aligned with the field. Where does this energy go? The particle initially enters on a horizontal axis [say] and exits deflected up or down, with an upward or downward component of velocity [proportional to the initial spin angle] and hence with energy associated with this deflection. Where did this energy come from? I show that, by use of the standard Hamiltonian, it is easy to prove that the energy of one mode is exchanged with (or 'into') the energy of the other mode, in this case from precessional energy into deflectional energy. While this analysis is new to Bell's theorem and to Stern-Gerlach, it is well-known that molecules exchange energy between modes, for example rotational- to vibrational-modes, so I am not making up completely new physics, simply applying it where it has never been applied before.

After I explained this local conservation, Tim essentially accepted this by never mentioning global conservation again, and never claiming again that this leads to my theory being "nonlocal" in Bell's sense.

I hope the above answer clarifies your first question, but if not I'll be happy to try further.

I think I'll address your next point in the following comment.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

En Passant,

You next interpret Tim Maudlin's statement that my model "makes no contact with Bell's theorem" [BT] as implying that Tim thinks I should have made contact via logical argument "(rather than by actual worldly facts, albeit those are at present only via [my] model.)" This reflects the fact that, after acceptance of Bell's oversimplified "physics" as "realistic", all focus changed to the "logic", and a small industry of such "quantum logicians" has arisen, with the 1979 analysis by d'Espagnat in Scientific American having essentially established the 'rules of the game'.

You are correct, I deal "in physics" and Tim, a respected professor of philosophy and math, would seem to prefer logic dissociated from physics. This is what would appear to be behind his repeated efforts to deny that Bell actually had any classical or other physics in mind when he set out looking for an alternative and more complete picture of physics that could also yield quantum correlation predictions. There are too many examples of this to review here, but they can be found in Tim's comments above.

Stern and Gerlach measured silver atoms, but when Tim claimed that neutrons are also "binary" I searched and the only neutron data I found is not binary (in Tim's sense) but pseudo-Gaussian or triangular [it's hard to tell with only 13 data points].

If I understand your question about reclassifying each of the 13 outcomes in the binary form, you are thinking about pairs from Alice and Bob, and asking if the desired correlations would express significant physics. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of the complexity of the issue, as the only neutron data is derived from a single Stern-Gerlach device, while the EPR experiment requires a 'pair' of coupled neutrons and two Stern-Gerlach devices, one for Bob, one for Alice. So EPR has never been done for neutrons, and it's not at all clear to me it's ever been done for other particles. For particles, it is much more an exercise in logic, based on Bell's Stern-Gerlach assumptions, than it is actual physics. And the physics of photons, and of photon detecting counters of the Aspect type, change so many aspects of the problem that there is no one-to-one correspondence in any meaningful way (except "logically", ignoring physics).

I do agree with you that, if Bell's theorem were accurately stated, it would state that "no local model that is constrained to binary results can reproduce quantum correlations", as stated in my last sentence on page 11 in my essay.

I would not dispute your final point, as everything about academia is political these days.

Thank you for your effort to understand and clarify these issues. It's been a pleasure.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

Many thanks for your detailed answers. Alas, it appears that some vindictive soul felt the need to make your community rating 5.8 (29 voters), down from earlier today of 6.0 (28 voters). My vote on Sunday might make up for it.

En

Dear Edwin:

I want to thank you very much: first, for a generous characterization of my essay, and second, for a critical reading of my observation concerning the phenomenon of duals. With respect to the latter, let me clarify what may have been obscure in my original submission.

We know for a fact that duals are everywhere, but some of us are curious to know why is it so: Why two? And why everywhere?

In my essay, I have used a thought experiment most intuitively familiar to us as human beings, viz. vision system and the concept of figure-ground within it (and of course its inevitable shadow, the concept of nothingness). Next I have tried to go one step further: I assumed the aforementioned separation of figure and ground must have energy expenditure, which cannot be too large or too small (for the reasons given in the essay).

I am sorry if I gave the impression that the "bundle of energy" required for separation obtained in the manner described is precisely the physicists' Planck constant, which you correctly points out needs to be in the units of (energy) x (time).

My speculative conclusion - not very original I'm afraid since I already know how Planck himself obtained his constant - is that my "bundle of energy" looks very much like the Planck constant!

Despite the analogical nature of analysis, this new perspective on Planck constant as a Mother of All Dualities can help us view:

(1) Quantum theory and its manifestations less mystically, and

(2) Mathematics and Physics as a Dual similar to many others. (Freedom-Determinism if you like: mathematics as a free creation of mind whereas physics is not complete without grounding in the results of experiments.)

Best Regards,

Than Tin

    Dear Than Tin,

    I believe yours is the only essay to focus on duality as an unmistakably significant aspect of logical, and analogical thought. I very much appreciated your essay, and, in another context, which I hope to write up later this year, agree with you that, in some sense the Planck constant may be considered the "Mother of All Dualities". I would encourage you to continue pursuing the approach you have taken.

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Ed,

    Re the above: In your essay there a several references to calculations by Alice and/or by Bob. Do you agree that, in seeking to analyse and understand your theory, there is no need to consider calculations by Alice or by Bob?

    To put it another way: Do you agree that your theory can be satisfactorily analysed and understood when the roles assigned to Alice, Bob and others are those in a typical Bell-test; ie, neither Alice, nor Bob, nor any other person undertakes any calculations?

    Many thanks; Gordon Watson: Essay Forum. Essay Only.

    Edwin,

    It might be helpful to readers here to repeat some of my response to you at my own essay. My argument about electromagnetic mass (in spaces of various dimensions) is somewhat complex but starts to come together for anyone with solid background who just follows along carefully. I appreciate that you are another of us, who realizes that math cannot just be glibly substituted as map for territory. There are many ways for the project to go wrong, both in terms of practical effect as well as deep questions of mind, determinism versus free action, etc.

    Yes, quantum mechanics is one such area where the effort can be a morass. I read your essay awhile ago, but at this point to appreciate your basic claims and line of critique. You put a lot of effort into analyzing and teasing apart the background physics, the experimental procedure and results, and the interpretations usually provided and their weaknesses. I admit I'm not yet convinced that you are right, or if anyone can be fully correct in this difficult aspect of physics. Yet your efforts deserve credit for the amount of work you put in, and their audacity, and I see you have been rewarded here accordingly.

      Dear Mr. Klingman,

      Your comment "We use our minds to connect math and physics" confirms the correctness of my essay heading Mind Over Matter. "Math arises in the physical world, not the other way around", and "the essence of math is awareness of relations and patterns," further confirm my understanding.

      I suspect that your definitions, e, g, Theoretical Physics, Quantum Mechanics and Entanglement, are very helpful to a "well-educated but non-specialist audience" but your reliance upon mathematical equations, symbols, graphs and other diagrams to support your arguments must leave many wondering about the distinction between tricks and truth.

      The name Alexander Graham Bell rings a bell, however it isn't until one reaches page 12 that one understands that the references to Bell in the text are to J. S. Bell or John Bell, and only after reading the Bertleman reference is one given to understand that J. S. and John refer to the same person.

      I enjoyed what I understood and misunderstood what I did not enjoy! That seemingly is the crux of mathematics and the sciences generally.

      Good luck with your submission,

      Gary Hansen.

        Dear Edwin,

        It's a very good expression of Mathematics to map the physical states of structures, but for mapping the Mystery in the Map, I think we may have to map the beginning of the Universe, where the Mystery exists, while your argument on the exclusion of multiverse is true.

        'Spooky action at a distance' may be interpreted differently in String-matter paradigm of Universe.

        With best wishes,

        Jayakar

          Dear Edwin,

          I would like to now fulfill my promise that I made to discuss your theory further. I do not wish to duplicate points that you have discussed with others, and in light of the extensive discussions you have already had, there is really only one thing that strikes me about it.

          It appears to me that much of the opposition you are running into is due to the fact that your idea presents an answer to a question that nobody is currently asking, and that, from a strategic perspective, a more effective approach for you would be to get people to first ask the relevant question, and then present your theory as a solution.

          In order for someone to seriously consider your argument, they have to first be willing to question whether the Stern-Gerlach experiment really has been misinterpreted all along for the last 90 years, which is what your assertion amounts to. But that is something that is probably only slightly less controversial than the claim that a single flip of an ordinary coin could result in many outcomes other than heads or tails. If I wanted to defend your position, I would first and foremost gather as much raw data from published SG experiments and perform statistical analyses to show that interpreting its outcomes in binary terms is a mistake. I am quite frankly astonished that you have so far only listed (as far as I can tell) the raw data from a single experiment (and, as far as I can tell, without statistical analysis), and done little more than just to assert that the outcomes of the SG experiment are not binary.

          As much as I am sympathetic to non-mainstream viewpoints, I don't think you can blame mainstream physicists if they don't find this convincing. The burden for gathering the evidence is on you, and for such an established result, it is very high.

          So my suggestion would be, for the moment, not to focus on promoting your theory, but on planting doubts that the SG experiment has been correctly interpreted. And to do that, you will need massive evidence. Let me be clear that, personally, I am very skeptical that this can be done, but I'd like to see any novel idea in "the marketplace of ideas" have a fair shot. If you don't do this (and under the supposition that there really was a mistaken interpretation), I think you are only depriving yourself of a fair shot.

          I hope you found my suggestion useful.

          Best wishes,

          Armin

            Ed,

            I accept that there is merit in Armin's view: It appears to him that "much of the opposition you are running into is due to the fact that your idea presents an answer to a question that nobody is currently asking."

            But I write to reinforce my own view. "Your opposition in part arises from this fact: you do not answer questions that are asked by me, a fellow local-realist and former colleague."

            And, as I see it, my view is the more serious: On 1 July 2014 (with receipt acknowledged) I sent you a copy of a paper in which I offered two local models of Bell's (1964) that your theory addresses. (It included the same for Aspect's experiment.)

            Now, from the answers I've received to date (and as you know from the brief analyses I've included in this Forum) I find my ideas hiding in your model. And thus "Bell's constraints" (your term) hide there too,* since they are explicitly included in my paper.

            So, surely: In the interests of fair play and the collaborative discussion and development of ideas here, your answers to my questions would help to clarify many issues.

            * partly hiding by means of associated factors.

            NB: Regarding the experiment that you propose, I make absolutely no claim there in that (independent of Bell) QM experiments are at the heart of all my models.

            PS: Regarding your ongoing sensitivity to releasing the high-level Mathematica that your model employs: I make no claim on that.

            With best regards; Gordon Watson: Essay Forum. Essay Only.

            Dear Edwin Eugene,

            As I told you in my Essay page, I have read your interesting Essay. I have a couple of comments:

            1) I did not know Korzybski's work, thanks for pointing out it. I will take infos about.

            2) Although I am not sure that the main claims of the Essay are correct, I find the work interesting and important within the debate determinism/randomness, classical/quantum physics. I find indeed the randomness of quantum mechanics to be neither completely satisfactory nor the final physical answer concerning our understanding of the world. More, the reading enjoyed me. Thus, I will give you an high score.

            I wish you best luck in the Contest.

            Cheers, Ch.

              Dear Eugene,

              As you have mentioned in your essay :FQXi asks why math is so 'unreasonably' effective in fundamental physics.

              The above feature extraction is based on distances obtained from these simplest math operations, and these math operations are easily constructed from physical structures ( atoms, molecules, DNA, proteins, cells, organisms, neural nets, and logic machines ) that can function as gates, implementing AND and NOT logic operations, which can be combined to count to produce integers and to add to produce distance maps and then compare distance maps to get difference maps (gradients) from measurements. The nature of the process of making math maps is thus rooted in the physical universe.

              Math maps imposed on the physical territory form the substance of physics."

              This is because mathematical and physical structures both are creations of Vibration as my Mathematical Structure Hypothesis states. As you have mentioned that Math maps the physical territory and mathematical operators structures,but even mathematical structures are mapped by some laws of invariance.The best example evident is the Riemann Zeta function structure which lies at the boundary of mathematics and physics.It can be deciphered that even certain laws of invariance maps the mathematical structure itself. So, mathematical structures are not only maps but their intrinsic structures are also mapped by certain laws of invariance.Its not mathematics explaining physics or physics explaining mathematics rather their intrinsic laws of invariance,order,symmetry match each other and thats why even Bell's locality-at-distance is also valid for mathematical structures because they are also creations of vibration like physical reality. Bell's locality-at-distance fundamentally exists because we are so addicted to the phenomenon of causation but the truth is that Time,Space & Causations are like the glass through which Absolute is seen.In the Absolute there is neither Time,Space or Causation;which I have described.

              Anyway your essay is great.

              Regards,

              Pankaj Mani

                Dear Edwin,

                Thank you for commenting on my wall and inviting me to read your essay. I just read it, and I have some questions. I apologize if they may seem naive to you.

                1. Is there a typo in your proof of the energy exchange theorem, in the box at page 4?

                2. Is theta the angle made by the particle's magnetic moment with the external magnetic field? This is what I understand from page 4. Or is it the angle between a and b, the directions in which Alice and Bob measure (this is what I understand from page 6)?

                3. Do the two particles share the same theta?

                4. When you apply the energy exchange theorem, what are the two modes M0 and M1? Are they the particle and the magnetic field of the SG device which measures its spin? Or they are the two particles?

                5. Could you show me more precisely where you derive the Bell correlations from your theory?

                6. Is your theory local? If so, where exactly you explain locally the correlations?

                Best wishes,

                Cristi Stoica (link to my essay)

                  Dear Neil Bates,

                  Thank you for your kind comment. As I noted on your thread I find your views generally compatible with my own, and found your treatment of dimension fascinating. I especially liked your statement

                  "All that math knows and can tell us in effect, is about math. When we think it is telling us something about "the world", we are just finding out about the model that we're using."

                  In my essay I discuss Bell's over-simplified physics model of Stern-Gerlach based on precession in a constant field, which leads to a null result; 0 not ±1. This contradiction is the basis upon which Bell builds his model, with well-known "logical" consequences. My model, of course does not lead to such a contradiction. Instead, it leads to local realism that produces the same correlation as quantum mechanics. As you indicate, the model did not fall together overnight, but the pieces do fall into place, after, as you say "teasing apart the background physics." It is a complex problem, and, as Jonathan noted above, of a "self-concealing nature", so I do not expect everyone to be convinced right off the bat. It does go against 50 years of gospel. But I am gratified by the number of people who make the effort to understand.

                  Thank you sincerely for your kind observations,

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman

                  Dear Gary Hansen,

                  Thanks for reading and commenting. As you note in your first paragraph, we do agree on the overview. Your second paragraph observes that my essay is rather technical and mathematical for a "well-educated but non-specialist audience". I plead guilty to that. I'm sure you are correct that many in the audience must be left wondering about the distinction between tricks and truth.

                  Unfortunately, the local audience of other authors, which is the one I tend to address, generally have no problem identifying Bell, as he is almost a saint in the community. But they have been tricked by Bell for 50 years, and it is necessary to become quite technical to reveal the trick. Even then, many find it hard to believe, because it has been ingrained into them that local models cannot produce quantum results. After 50 years this has become a visceral conviction, and can not be successfully addressed with a physics-lite treatment.

                  I'm very glad that you enjoyed what you understood. It is unfortunate that everything cannot be understood at first reading [not by me at least] but very fortunate that re-reading complex essays increases their understandability.

                  Thanks for plowing through my essay. It's appreciated.

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman

                  Dear Jayakar,

                  Thanks for your very clear statement about use of math to map the physical state of structures. I agree that it is best to recognize mystery at the beginning of the universe, and not in our basic theories via such a mystical ideas as "collapse of the wave function" and "non-local entanglement".

                  I will read your essay and respond. I'm very biased in favor of "continuum mechanics", but against "string-matter" [as I understand it] and look forward to seeing how you manage this.

                  Thank you for reading and responding.

                  Best wishes,

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman

                  Dear Christian Corda,

                  Thanks for reading my essay and responding. I'm glad that you have discovered Korzybski. His 'map' and 'territory' is always a good distinction to keep in mind.

                  I'm even more pleased that you both enjoyed my essay and found it important in the context of the issues currently debated in physics.

                  The issue of Bell is far too complex to be understood and decided on the basis of one essay, so I am not surprised that most of the serious physicists who have looked at my essay remain "unsure". That is quite appropriate. What I hoped for was to introduce the idea that, whereas Bell's math and logic have been tested for 50 years, his oversimplified physics has been accepted without question, because it agrees with the 1925 Goudsmit and Uhlenbeck view of 'spin' and with Pauli's simple constant-field eigenvalue equation. As Jonathan notes above, the problem has a "self-concealing nature" that must be seen through before progress can be made.

                  And I hoped that, by showing that a local model that takes the inhomogeneous field into account actually yields the quantum mechanical correlation unless the physics information is thrown away by enforcing [unreasonable and unrealistic] constraints, it would catch the attention of serious physicists, who might then be stimulated to wonder how this is so, and thus begin the process of looking beyond Bell's overly-simply physics model. Valid math and logic applied to a faulty model, based on faulty assumptions, produce faulty conclusions, such as "no local model can...".

                  Thank you very much for reading and providing very valuable feedback to me.

                  I wish you the best also.

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman

                  Dear Pankaj Mani,

                  Thanks for your comments. We seem to agree that the math maps physical structures and that "math maps on physical territory form the substance of physics."

                  I will look at your essay on vibration. As I tend to a continuum-based interpretation of reality, vibration certainly plays a significant role in my physics, but I will study your essay and respond on your page. I have some difficulty envisioning Bell's non-locality as purely vibration-based, although for the photon-based experiments I do not rule this out.

                  Thanks for your kind words about by essay.

                  Best regards,

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman

                  Dear Cristi Stoica,

                  Thank you for reading my essay, which I know is in conflict with your current view. Thus I'm really grateful to you for making the effort. I will try to answer your questions.

                  1. Yes, there is a typo in my energy exchange theorem, as I note above on Mar 15, 2015 @ 00:19 GMT. My essay posted on Jan 9 and I tried to submit a corrected version on Jan 10, but the [correct] FQXi policy is to not change essays after they post. It is an obvious typo and has not seemed to throw anyone off, as it is cancelled in the same line.

                  2. Also, as discussed in one of the many comments above, the angle θ (with one exception) always refers to the local angle between the spin and the magnetic field in the local Stern-Gerlach apparatus. Only in the figures on page 7 [where θ is shown as the horizontal axis) does θ represent the angle between Alice's setting a and Bob's setting b, which is the angle that appears in the QM correlation, -a.b. I apologize for any confusion. In Stern-Gerlach sources the angle is usually θ = (λ,B) while in Bell sources θ = (a,b).

                  3. No, the particles do not show the same θ. The local θ in Alice's device is θ = (λ,a) while the local θ in Bob's device is θ = (-λ,b). Only the local θ has relevance for the local physics that leads to the non-±1 scattered deflection.

                  4. The energy modes M0 and M1 are local. M0 is the θ-dependent precession energy associated with configuration -λ.B that is initially not aligned but vanishes when the spin λ aligns with the local field. M1 is the θ-dependent vertical component of the kinetic energy that did not exist when the particle entered on the horizontal axis with only horizontal velocity. Thus the precession energy vanishes and the deflection energy appears locally, and the local conservation follows the Energy-Exchange theorem. And as the deflection is θ-dependent, this dependence can be seen in the measurment data, but is not present in the [incomplete] quantum mechanical formulation, hence is 'hidden'.

                  5. The theory [based on energy exchange] calculates a local deflection for Alice denoted by A(λ,a) where both the spin λ and the setting a are randomly generated. Similarly for Bob. These produce scattering or deflections represented by the local θ-dependent position of the particle on the detecting screen. A(λ,a) is read from Alice's screen (as calculated by the theory) and B(-λ,b) is read from Bob's screen, (also calculated by the theory.) It is these two values that are multiplied in pairwise fashion to produce the correlation. But the definition of the expectation value also contains the distribution of values AB, so, as A and B are calculated for 3,000,000 sets of random numbers, the distribution of the results is determined by computer, not from a formula, but from actual data, in a multichannel-analyzer-like analysis. This is used to compute the correlation shown on page 7. The basic formula or definition of expectation value is

                  < AB > = SUM [ p(AB) (AB) ]

                  6. Yes, my theory is local, in that critical settings a and b never appear together, unlike quantum mechanics where a and b do occur in the expectation value. Of course a goes into the calculation of A(λ,a) but it is combined into a product term and cannot be factored out, so it is not present as a in the result. [Just as, if a = 4 and λ = 9, the product term 36 implicitly contains both a and λ but they cannot be explicitly factored out.] Nor is b factorable from Bob's numeric result B(-λ,b). Thus only the [computed or measured] numbers,not containing a and b, are used, and yet, given the physics of energy exchange - based on local conservation - the correlation that results is -a.b. Mine is the only theory that is truly and provably local.

                  The above is a very subtle point, and if you still have questions on this point I will be happy to try to answer them.

                  Thank you for your best wishes, and especially thanks for taking the time to read and study what you viewed ahead of time as almost certainly a waste of time (kind of like perpetual motion).

                  My best wishes for you Cristi,

                  Edwin Eugene Klingman