Hi Joe,

I think you may need to define your use of the term "real light" I agree light is not the same as matter. The electromagnetic radiation in the environment is invisible but upon receipt it can be used to generate vision and seen light. Consider another wave phenomenon, water waves: you might argue that the wave itself doesn't have a surface because it is the material water that is in possession of a surface. Yet the energy of the wave does change its location over time. That is visible. So can't it be said to be travelling? I don't think invisibility makes something unreal. Experiments have been done where tiny objects have been rendered invisible by the bending of light rays around them. They are only visible in the first place because of the scattering of light from the surface (including absorption of some wavelengths and re-emission of others) which then provides information to an observer enabling vision. I actually agree with you that Newton was actually giving us Laws that apply to invisible objects (the objects themselves and not the images of them produced by observation). That does not make the laws wrong.

Joe,

Further to:I don't think invisibility makes something unreal. The object rendered invisible remains a part of the material reality of the universe (that I have called 'Object reality') but ceases to be part of the observer's reality generated from received EM, (that I have called 'Image reality'). The visible and invisible realities co-exist without paradox/impossibility.

Dear Georgina,

Real matter is real infinite surface. It is observable because it is always illuminated by infinite real non-surface light. Real infinite light is not produced by finite invisible waves of kinetic energy. You wrote: "I don't think invisibility makes something unreal." But you cannot see a state of invisibility, therefore a state of invisibility MUST BE UNREAL

Joe Fisher

Hi Joe,

Re. your statement "But you cannot see a state of invisibility, therefore a state of invisibility MUST BE UNREAL" There are in my opinion two kinds of reality. The kind that is observed, measured and or experienced from the input of information from the external environment and the kind that exists independent of observation , measurement and experience. From a quick Google search one definition of "real" shown first, is "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed". That isn't qualified by the requirement that it is visible. I mentioned an experiment where an object is rendered invisible by bending of light rays around it. It would be quite easy to show that the object is not de-materializing by having it on a weighing platform and seeing if the weight shown changes when the object becomes invisible.

Hi Joe,

you have previously said that the light does not travel. How is it then that material objects are visible? You have said they must be visible to be real. It is known from biology that the visual system receives EM radiation input that stimulates the cells of the retina. Individual cells respond to certain frequencies and intensities of input. Illumination, rendering objects visible, requires the processing of the EM input. Without that input and processing there is no vision of the external environment. It is not visible (without that) even if there is a relation between the EM radiation (light) and the material object.

Georgina,

You are confusing invisible with out-of-sight. The real observable Universe is utterly simple. It consists only of infinite surface that is always illuminated by infinite non-surface light. You have a complete surface including the surface of your eyes. You can only see SURFACE. Gary Kasparov lost to the IBM computer Big Blue. Kasparov was capable at the time of playing a dozen games of chess blindfolded because Kasparov had previously seen and memorized real chess action. No computer will ever be built that could "play" a game of chess without prior instruction. The state of invisible CANNOT BE MEMORIZED.

Hi Joe,

there are different meanings of the term "invisible" eg. it can mean not perceptible to the eye, not visible (I would include "cloaked" out of sight in that category) or impossible to see. It seems "impossible to see" is the meaning you have chosen. Re. only being able to see surfaces, it does depend upon the material. I have some glass paperweights and I can see more than the surface, I can see coloured glass inside, below the clear glass surface. Sea weed under the surface of water? Dense cloud structure within more diffuse cloud?

I don't understand the relevance of the chess game to your argument.I'm not sure why you are talking about memorizing -are you talking about an imaginable universe, "real" equating with imaginable (to your mind)?

Georgina,

One real observable Universe can only consist of one real observable infinite surface that was always illuminated by infinite non-surface light. Your eyes have a surface that can only see a plethora of seamlessly enmeshed varied colored flattish looking partial surfaces. You do not see any complete set of surfaces sequentially. You can describe the surface of the colored lights shining through the surface of the glass paperweight BECAUSE YOU HAVE MEMORIZED THEM. You failed to mention that at the time you looked at the glass paperweight, you would have also seen a patch of the surface of the desk the glass paperweight was resting on and an INFINITE number of other partial surfaces including a tiny portion of the surface of your real nose as you gazed at the glass paperweight. The dictionary definition for invisible confuses it with unseen, or out of sight.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Here is a new thread I just created called "Reality Quantum-geometrodynamically Embedded." It identifies Quantum theory and spacetime with First-Order Logic.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/reality-quantum-geometrodynamically-embedded.156578/

    Hi Joe, I am still unclear about whether you are talking about what exists independently of observation or only about what is seen (or might be seen giving appropriate observer location). I'm not sure whether you would regard what can be represented showing, for example, an output from ultraviolet light receipt by a device would still fall into your category of observable; or whether human sight alone is relevant to your model. Not seeing the complete set of possible observable surfaces is an important point as it is showing one of the ways in which measurement /observation /experience differs from what exists independently. What the observer sees is dependent upon what information can be received from that location at that time and formed into the observed (Image) reality. Yes I have memorized the look if the paperweights,why do you emphasize that?

    Finite invisible quanta has nothing to do with observable infinite surface.

    Joe Fisher, Realist

    Georgina,

    NOTHING exists independently of visible infinite surface. There is no finite invisible space. There is no invisible finite matter. All observers are automatically in the only position infinite surface can be seen from, for part of the infinity of surface covers each and every observer including each observers eyes.

    Joe Fisher, Realist

    "Do you think we are close to fully understanding the relationship between the quantum and classical worlds?" Yes. We already know exactly what is involved. In the classical realm, all measurements ALWAYS extract multiple bits of information; that is what makes them "classical". But when only a single bit of information can be extracted, you have entered into the quantum realm, in which, after any one measurement has been made, ALL subsequent measurements MUST be correlated with the first measurement, in ways not observed "classically", since the very definition of "only a single bit of information exists within the measured entity", means that no additional INDEPENDENT variables remain to be measured.

    In other words, once you have measured position, it is foolhardy to even ATTEMPT to measure momentum, or, once you have measured one particle in a pair of "entangled" particles, it is foolhardy to even ATTEMPT to make an independent measurement of the second, if the entity being measured contains only a single bit of information. If there is only one bit of information present, there CANNOT EVER BE a second, uncorrelated measurement of anything. Every additional measurement MUST be correlated in some way that will appear to be "weird", from a classical perspective, because single, isolated bits of information do not exist in the classical realm, anymore than isolated quarks exist in nature.

    Rob McEachern

      Hi Joe,

      so the surface you talk about, it seems to me from your description, is the external reality and not the image formed by an observer; correct? What are holes? How do you classify those things too small to be observed without a device, invisible or just unseen? Moving Atoms: Making The World's Smallest Movie

      It isn't just in the 'quantum realm' that there can not be directly measured counterfactual definiteness. If it is thought that objects exist spread over time then the momentum of an object is a preexisting quantity prior to measurement. I think there is no evidence that material objects are spread over time. At every Now there is an unmeasured position but there is no momentum because momentum is a calculation involving different positions at different times; a characterization including behaviour over time. At the macroscopic scale the object does not have to be directly interacted with to get a position measurement, because of the way in which objects are observed via vision ( with or without use of a device), allowing momentum over time to be measured as well. It isn't a direct measurement of the object itself but a measurement formed from the received EM information.(The measurement of the position of the 'object' at the macroscopic scale will involve relativity because objects are not seen directly but because of the light emitted and subsequently received by the observer.) Akin to what happens at the 'quantum scale': If a blind person is asked to say the position of an object by touching it as it passes that would, due to the forces involved, alter momentum of the object. If the forces involved in the measurement by direct interaction are very small the effect on momentum of a sufficiently large object might be negligible but that would not be the case for an exceedingly small object.

      Rob, I think your point about lack of information is a good one but I don't think it is enough on its own to explain the difficulties of reconciling quantum and macroscopic scales. My previous post is a mixture of different relevant ideas, making it a bit unclear , I think.

      1. Position and momentum are different kinds of attributes, a position can exist at one time but not momentum. Momentum is a mix of a quality of the object (its mass) and velocity which can be thought of as a behaviour over time. It isn't possible to have a limited fixed state position at the same time as a changing position , necessary for momentum. That is true whatever the size of the object.

      2. Macroscopic 'objects' are often measured indirectly. The image of the object substituted for the material object itself. That doesn't happen for quantum objects.

      3.Indirect measurement of macroscopic properties ( via use of images produced from emitted Em radiation )leaves the material object itself undisturbed so further measurements can be made. That is not happening in quantum physics.

      Georgina,

      You need to think about it some more. If there is only one bit, then there is only one thing to be measured. It has no attributes at all, other than its existence, much less multiple, different kinds of attributes. Think about it.

      When you set the expression for the Shannon Capacity (the information carrying capacity of a time-limited signal) equal to one bit, and evaluate it for the case of the signal being a photon, you get EXACTLY the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This is not just some weird coincidence. Although the uncertainty principle consists of the product of two numbers, there are not two numbers to be measured, in this limiting case, there is only the one product, and it can only be measured (determined) with an accuracy of one bit. Any attempt to measure anything else, is doomed to produce "spooky correlations at a distance". This has nothing to do with "weird" physics (other than the fact that nature has somehow managed to construct entities containing only one bit of information). It has to do with the misunderstood nature of information.

      Rob McEachern

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      Georgina,

      Real observable infinite surface does not have an invisible finite interior, or an invisible finite exterior. It is physically impossible for anyone to see a hole for there cannot be any invisible finite space in infinite surface. The surface of the hare always travels at the same speed as that of the tortoise does, whether one or both of them are alive or dead. Surface is unified. When you scratch your nose, all the rest of infinite surface is engaged in some other observable activity other than the scratching of your nose.

      Joe Fisher, Realist

      I forgot this thread, thanks for your answer Mr Agnew.It is a beautiful appraoch towards this gravity,we search it after all.

      Best Regards

      Joe,

      It might help if you explained your assertions, rather than just making them. I can accept that an observable surface does not include structure within because, if we are only talking about opaque surfaces the interior is not itself observable. Yet many biological and mechanical processes could not occur without the interior. I am not just a surface and nor is a car. I think you will have to do more than just deny the identify-ability of holes. My ability to see them, or rather the differences in the image produced from different intensities of received light is important so that I don't, for example, fall down them. I would find the hare and tortoise moving at the same rate comprehensible if you were talking about the potential sensory data within the EM radiation but you have said light doesn't travel and now are saying the surface does. Please explain what you are talking about Joe.