Rob,

I don't think the measurement problem only occurs for 1 bit signals.Interaction with the thing observed provides a measurement and also alters its location or behaviour from what it would have been without measurement. Making any subsequent measurement 'contaminated' by the interference with the thing observed. That seems to have come as a big surprise to physicists. I have read a description of that surprise that says something like "we can measure the velocity and position of a car with accuracy" and suggesting that it was size [alone] that made the difference. However the way in which macroscopic objects are considered means that often the measurements are not of the object itself but an image of it (formed from received EM information) allowing measurement without perturbation.If a direct measurement on the object is made there would be perturbation though it could be very small for a large enough object and gentle enough sensor.

The other point is not a practical one but philosophical. Fixed Position and momentum (mv)are mutually exclusive. If the thing has a measurable velocity it doesn't have a fixed position (in that same frame of reference); and if it has a fixed position it doesn't have a measurable velocity (in that same frame of reference). That isn't a matter of size.

You are missing the point. In tests of Bell's inequality, the whole point of performing a single measurement on each member of a pair of entangled particles, is to avoid the problem you have noted. But that can never avoid the problem that I have described; once you have measured one of the particles, there is NOTHING left to be independently measured, from the second.

Rob McEachern

Georgina,

There is no clearer an explanation I could possibly provide than the indisputable fact that only observable infinite surface always illuminated by infinite non-surface light exists. You are confusing a finite separate independent you, or a finite separate independent motor car of consisting only of a finite surface and you are wrong. It could not physically possibly be. Either all visible and invisible physical phenomena is finite and separated and independent, or only UNIFIED observable surface is infinite.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Joe, the "indisputable fact" you have stated is not an explanation. You have not explained how something infinite is observable,or how you know the surface and the light are infinite. You have not explained what you mean by illumination. You have not explained how observation is possible; given your previous statement that light does not travel, and given the the structure and function of the visual system of an observer).Please explain why sub components of the infinite surface can not be considered, even if they are continuous with the whole? Your final either or doesn't work for me. There is a difference between what is observable and what exists (using what I understand by the term 'observable'-you have not described how your alternative with non moving light works). I accept the philosophical argument that the whole of what materially exists might be regarded as one unified system but that isn't what you are saying, I think. The structure of that final 'either or'needs revising to provide a good logical argument. Eg. Objects can be mentally isolated from the whole of the material universe for consideration without being considered independent of it.

There is a beauty to aethertime gravity where it is the periods of quantum orbits that scale all force.

Steve Dufourny replied on Jun. 3, 2016 @ 16:31 GMT as "I forgot this thread, thanks for your answer Mr Agnew.It is a beautiful appraoch towards this gravity,we search it after all."

Instead of force being body-centered and 1/r^2 with a singularity at r=0, aethertime force is action-centered with a quantum period as 1/tau^2. Since a quantum orbit always has a finite period, the singularities of space and time do not actually exist. Spacetime singularities are the result of the limitations of the notions of continuous space and time. Aethertime changes the meaning of a black hole since it is the black hole finite quantum period that is what defines an event horizon.

There is a decoherence time for all quantum phase including that of a black hole spin down. Unlike atomic time, decoherence time does not stop at an event horizon. The decoherence of the boson matter of a black hole spin down simply represents the destiny of all matter in the universe.

In effect, the spin down of black holes encodes all of the information of the fermion matter and there is no information lost in a black hole. Black holes are a sink for the entropy and all of the information of accreted fermion matter, Therefore it is the spin downs of black holes that point the arrow of time and it is the spin downs of black holes that provide the order that characterizes the universe.

Georgina,

An indisputable fact is self-explanatory, that is why it cannot be disputed.. There has never been any invisible FINITE separate independent "something" There has only ever been unified observable infinite surface that is always illuminated by infinite non-surface light. Invisible observers with invisible finite observational structures have never existed, so why do I have to explain how they function? Real infinity does not have any finite invisible sub-components.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Joe,

it isn't self explanatory, that is why I don't understand how your model functions and have asked so may questions (that you haven't addressed). If the "indisputable fact" isn't up for discussion you should not claim it as a fact but as the premise of your argument (a given)on which the rest of your speculation and argument is based.I think you do have to discuss ( and expand on the the idea) you are proposing if it is to be taken seriously. How does your model fit or differ with physics, chemistry and biology, what can it explain or improve upon, how does it function to give the kinds of reality we experience (or can deduce exist independently of experience)?

Hi again Joe, please could you help me out a little and let me know if you are seriously proposing your belief system or whether it is an attempted parody of physics modelling of the universe (or some kinds of physics model). A science "spaghetti monster"?

Georgina,

The one real observable Universe that consists only of infinite unified surface that is always illuminated by infinite non-surface light is not a FINITE invisible "model" of reality. It is the only irreducible uncontestable FACT that can be pragmatically proven by direct observation. YOU will only ever see a plethora of seamlessly enmeshed flattish varied colored infinite surface wherever you look with your infinite surface covered eyes. You will only ever touch infinite surface with your infinite surface sense organs. You will only taste infinite surface with your infinite taste organs. You will only smell infinite surface with the infinite surface of your nasal organs. You will only hear the clashing of infinite surface with the infinite surface of your real or fabricated infinite surface hearing organs.

Scientific journals have refused to send out my truthful infinite surface statement for peer revue. They will never allow it to be published. Like you, and Hawking, everybody only believes in invisible codswallop.

First-order logic

Main article: First-order logic

Whereas universal algebra provides the semantics for a signature, logic provides the syntax. With terms, identities and quasi-identities, even universal algebra has some limited syntactic tools; first-order logic is the result of making quantification explicit and adding negation into the picture.

A first-order formula is built out of atomic formulas such as R(f(x,y),z) or y = x + 1 by means of the Boolean connectives {\displaystyle \neg ,\land ,\lor ,\rightarrow } and prefixing of quantifiers {\displaystyle \forall v}or {\displaystyle \exists v}. A sentence is a formula in which each occurrence of a variable is in the scope of a corresponding quantifier. Examples for formulas are П† (or П†(x) to mark the fact that at most x is an unbound variable in П†) and П€ defined as follows:

1. (П† в€Ё П€), (П† ∧ П€), (В¬П†), (П† в†' П€) 2. (в€ѓxП†), (в€ЂxП†)

(Note that the equality symbol has a double meaning here.) It is intuitively clear how to translate such formulas into mathematical meaning. In the Пѓsmr-structure {\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}}of the natural numbers, for example, an element n satisfies the formula П† if and only if n is a prime number. The formula П€ similarly defines irreducibility. Tarski gave a rigorous definition, sometimes called "Tarski's definition of truth", for the satisfaction relation {\displaystyle \models }, so that one easily proves:

Thus в€Ђy (rxy) в€Ё в€ѓy (rxy) means (в€Ђy (rxy)) в€Ё (в€ѓy (rxy)) .

A set T of sentences is called a (first-order) theory. A theory is satisfiable if it has a model M |= T, i.e. a structure (of the appropriate signature) which satisfies all the sentences in the set T. Consistency of a theory is usually defined in a syntactical way, but in first-order logic by the completeness theorem there is no need to distinguish between satisfiability and consistency. Therefore, model theorists often use "consistent" as a synonym for "satisfiable".

A theory is called categorical if it determines a structure up to isomorphism, but it turns out that this definition is not useful, due to serious restrictions in the expressivity of first-order logic. The Löwenheim-Skolem theorem implies that for every theory T[2] which has an infinite model and for every infinite cardinal numberκ, there is a model {\displaystyle {\mathcal {M}}\models T} such that the number of elements of {\displaystyle {\mathcal {M}}} is exactly κ. Therefore, only finitary structures can be described by a categorical theory.

Lack of expressivity (when compared to higher logics such as second-order logic) has its advantages, though. For model theorists, the Löwenheim-Skolem theorem is an important practical tool rather than the source of Skolem's paradox. In a certain sense made precise by Lindström's theorem, first-order logic is the most expressive logic for which both the Löwenheim-Skolem theorem and the compactness theorem hold.

As a corollary (i.e., its contrapositive), the compactness theorem says that every unsatisfiable first-order theory has a finite unsatisfiable subset. This theorem is of central importance in infinite model theory, where the words "by compactness" are commonplace. One way to prove it is by means of ultraproducts. An alternative proof uses the completeness theorem, which is otherwise reduced to a marginal role in most of modern model theory.

From: Model Theory, Wikipedia

Also see, Introduction to the CTMU:

That this structure is completely self-distributed implies that it is locally indistinguishable for subsystems s; it could only be discerned against its absence, and it is nowhere absent in S. Spacetime is thus transparent from within, its syntactic structure invisible to its contents on the classical (macroscopic) level. Localized systems generally express and utilize only a part of this syntax on any given scale, as determined by their specific structures. I.e., where there exists a hological incoversion endomorphism D:SГ {rГЋS} carrying the whole structure of S into every internal point and region of S, objects (quantum-geometrodynamically) embedded in S take their recognition and state-transformation syntaxes directly from the ambient spatiotemporal background up to isomorphism. Objects thus utilize only those aspects of D(S) of which they are structural and functional representations.

From: http://www.ctmu.org/Articles/IntroCTMU.htm

Here we see a relationship between Quantum Mechanics and Logic.

Logic is Quantum. Quantum, logic. Recall that reality is logic(al). Hence, so to is Quantum reality. First order logic formulas are built by atomic formulas. Which themselves combine to form first order theories. A first order theory that is satisfiable has a model M |= T. We derive Quantum logic from this and the CTMU derives a reality that is Quantum-geometrodynamically embedded. Where spatiotemporal containment defines the location of objects within time and space. As the objects move through time and space, they take their state-recognition and state-transformation syntaxes directly from this ambient spatiotemporal background. Now, what does this have to do with first order logic? Well, if you read the very first paragraph of what I posted from the Wikipedia article, it says that Universal Algebra provides the semantics for the signature of a formal language, whereas logic provides the syntax. So we have reality being logically Quantum-geometrodynamically embedded within itself using syntax.

Does this make sense?

Nicholas I. Hosein, 2016.

Hi Joe, thank you for taking the time to reply. I now understand that what you are describing is not a scientific model but your own (indisputable ) belief. The main reason it will not be published in a scientific journal is because it is not science. What peer review do you think is possible when you say your statements are indisputable truth? The time and thought I have spent on it (as one of your peers) is probably as good a review as it will get. What is and isn't "codswallop" is a matter of subjective opinion.S. Hawkins ideas are at least based on concepts and mathematics that can be, and are, disputed.

Georgina,

It is science that is wrong, I am right. All scientists squawk about the treatment Galileo received from the Catholic Church. But the Church bored a hole in the roof of a Basilica in order to track a sunbeam and prove that Galileo was right about the earth orbiting the sun. You know I am right about infinite surface. That must now become the science of visible reality and all of the quantum quackery must now be consigned to the science fiction of invisible implausibility. I converted you, it is now time for either the AIP CHAOS Journal to submit my essay NOW SEE HERE to two female scientists for Peer Review, or for the Journal of North Carolina Academy of Science to do so.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Georgina,

Professor of Microbiology Melanie Lee-Brown, who is the Managing Editor of the Journal of North Carolina Academy of Science accepted my educational essay, NOW SEE HERE. She cannot find any Peer reviewers for it. Ms Overstreet, the Peer Revue Manager of the AIP CHAOS Journal specifically requested that I submit my essay to the Journal and she consulted with Professor Jurgen Kurtha to find the proper Peer Reviewers. Ignoramus Kurtha rejected my essay without sending to out for the Peer Review the Peer Review Manager had advocated.

Joe Fisher, Realist.

I think I've learned a useful phrase today:

" ... invisible implausibility."

Hello all,

Hello Tom hope you are better ,happy to see you on fqxi.Take care Jedi :)

Georgi,

don't bother giving anyone free rent in your head, God knows how many of those polite rejection form letters a publisher like AIP sends out every week. jrc

Hi Joe,

I think it would be helpful for you to take a break from thinking about and promoting your ideas and then come back to them later with a refreshed frame of mind. You may see things differently. It appears to me that you are not currently able to rationally discuss them. Your false comments "You know I'm right " and I have converted you", and others, show some delusional thinking is going on, not helping your cause. I'm not saying any of that to insult you. Wishing you well, Georgina

"Finite invisible quanta has nothing to do with observable infinite surface."

Joe, this is equivalent to saying that the quanta of an infinite surface are countably infinite (observable). Thus qualifying these quanta as a finite sum of an infinite series.

Now you may dismiss this as "abstract codswallop", but there are objective facts that make invisible things visible to the mind's-eye, if one dares to open it.

(Steve, thanks. :-) )

  • [deleted]

Dear Georgina,

Observable unified infinite surface that is always illuminated by infinite non-surface light is not my idea. It is pragmatic reality that anyone can easily apprehend by using their senses. Hawking's book, A brief History of Time is filled only with his ideas about invisible atoms moving in invisible space; and invisible black holes in invisible space, and an invisible expanding universe. Scientists are supposed to be ethical seekers of the truth. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there was supposed to be another Essay Contest at this site concerning The Physics of the Observer that was mentioned in the Grant application rules. Why don't you query Dr. Foster, the Projects manager as to why the Essay Contest has not been started.

Joe Fisher, Realist