Georgina,

You are confusing invisible with out-of-sight. The real observable Universe is utterly simple. It consists only of infinite surface that is always illuminated by infinite non-surface light. You have a complete surface including the surface of your eyes. You can only see SURFACE. Gary Kasparov lost to the IBM computer Big Blue. Kasparov was capable at the time of playing a dozen games of chess blindfolded because Kasparov had previously seen and memorized real chess action. No computer will ever be built that could "play" a game of chess without prior instruction. The state of invisible CANNOT BE MEMORIZED.

Hi Joe,

there are different meanings of the term "invisible" eg. it can mean not perceptible to the eye, not visible (I would include "cloaked" out of sight in that category) or impossible to see. It seems "impossible to see" is the meaning you have chosen. Re. only being able to see surfaces, it does depend upon the material. I have some glass paperweights and I can see more than the surface, I can see coloured glass inside, below the clear glass surface. Sea weed under the surface of water? Dense cloud structure within more diffuse cloud?

I don't understand the relevance of the chess game to your argument.I'm not sure why you are talking about memorizing -are you talking about an imaginable universe, "real" equating with imaginable (to your mind)?

Georgina,

One real observable Universe can only consist of one real observable infinite surface that was always illuminated by infinite non-surface light. Your eyes have a surface that can only see a plethora of seamlessly enmeshed varied colored flattish looking partial surfaces. You do not see any complete set of surfaces sequentially. You can describe the surface of the colored lights shining through the surface of the glass paperweight BECAUSE YOU HAVE MEMORIZED THEM. You failed to mention that at the time you looked at the glass paperweight, you would have also seen a patch of the surface of the desk the glass paperweight was resting on and an INFINITE number of other partial surfaces including a tiny portion of the surface of your real nose as you gazed at the glass paperweight. The dictionary definition for invisible confuses it with unseen, or out of sight.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Here is a new thread I just created called "Reality Quantum-geometrodynamically Embedded." It identifies Quantum theory and spacetime with First-Order Logic.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/reality-quantum-geometrodynamically-embedded.156578/

    Hi Joe, I am still unclear about whether you are talking about what exists independently of observation or only about what is seen (or might be seen giving appropriate observer location). I'm not sure whether you would regard what can be represented showing, for example, an output from ultraviolet light receipt by a device would still fall into your category of observable; or whether human sight alone is relevant to your model. Not seeing the complete set of possible observable surfaces is an important point as it is showing one of the ways in which measurement /observation /experience differs from what exists independently. What the observer sees is dependent upon what information can be received from that location at that time and formed into the observed (Image) reality. Yes I have memorized the look if the paperweights,why do you emphasize that?

    Finite invisible quanta has nothing to do with observable infinite surface.

    Joe Fisher, Realist

    Georgina,

    NOTHING exists independently of visible infinite surface. There is no finite invisible space. There is no invisible finite matter. All observers are automatically in the only position infinite surface can be seen from, for part of the infinity of surface covers each and every observer including each observers eyes.

    Joe Fisher, Realist

    "Do you think we are close to fully understanding the relationship between the quantum and classical worlds?" Yes. We already know exactly what is involved. In the classical realm, all measurements ALWAYS extract multiple bits of information; that is what makes them "classical". But when only a single bit of information can be extracted, you have entered into the quantum realm, in which, after any one measurement has been made, ALL subsequent measurements MUST be correlated with the first measurement, in ways not observed "classically", since the very definition of "only a single bit of information exists within the measured entity", means that no additional INDEPENDENT variables remain to be measured.

    In other words, once you have measured position, it is foolhardy to even ATTEMPT to measure momentum, or, once you have measured one particle in a pair of "entangled" particles, it is foolhardy to even ATTEMPT to make an independent measurement of the second, if the entity being measured contains only a single bit of information. If there is only one bit of information present, there CANNOT EVER BE a second, uncorrelated measurement of anything. Every additional measurement MUST be correlated in some way that will appear to be "weird", from a classical perspective, because single, isolated bits of information do not exist in the classical realm, anymore than isolated quarks exist in nature.

    Rob McEachern

      Hi Joe,

      so the surface you talk about, it seems to me from your description, is the external reality and not the image formed by an observer; correct? What are holes? How do you classify those things too small to be observed without a device, invisible or just unseen? Moving Atoms: Making The World's Smallest Movie

      It isn't just in the 'quantum realm' that there can not be directly measured counterfactual definiteness. If it is thought that objects exist spread over time then the momentum of an object is a preexisting quantity prior to measurement. I think there is no evidence that material objects are spread over time. At every Now there is an unmeasured position but there is no momentum because momentum is a calculation involving different positions at different times; a characterization including behaviour over time. At the macroscopic scale the object does not have to be directly interacted with to get a position measurement, because of the way in which objects are observed via vision ( with or without use of a device), allowing momentum over time to be measured as well. It isn't a direct measurement of the object itself but a measurement formed from the received EM information.(The measurement of the position of the 'object' at the macroscopic scale will involve relativity because objects are not seen directly but because of the light emitted and subsequently received by the observer.) Akin to what happens at the 'quantum scale': If a blind person is asked to say the position of an object by touching it as it passes that would, due to the forces involved, alter momentum of the object. If the forces involved in the measurement by direct interaction are very small the effect on momentum of a sufficiently large object might be negligible but that would not be the case for an exceedingly small object.

      Rob, I think your point about lack of information is a good one but I don't think it is enough on its own to explain the difficulties of reconciling quantum and macroscopic scales. My previous post is a mixture of different relevant ideas, making it a bit unclear , I think.

      1. Position and momentum are different kinds of attributes, a position can exist at one time but not momentum. Momentum is a mix of a quality of the object (its mass) and velocity which can be thought of as a behaviour over time. It isn't possible to have a limited fixed state position at the same time as a changing position , necessary for momentum. That is true whatever the size of the object.

      2. Macroscopic 'objects' are often measured indirectly. The image of the object substituted for the material object itself. That doesn't happen for quantum objects.

      3.Indirect measurement of macroscopic properties ( via use of images produced from emitted Em radiation )leaves the material object itself undisturbed so further measurements can be made. That is not happening in quantum physics.

      Georgina,

      You need to think about it some more. If there is only one bit, then there is only one thing to be measured. It has no attributes at all, other than its existence, much less multiple, different kinds of attributes. Think about it.

      When you set the expression for the Shannon Capacity (the information carrying capacity of a time-limited signal) equal to one bit, and evaluate it for the case of the signal being a photon, you get EXACTLY the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This is not just some weird coincidence. Although the uncertainty principle consists of the product of two numbers, there are not two numbers to be measured, in this limiting case, there is only the one product, and it can only be measured (determined) with an accuracy of one bit. Any attempt to measure anything else, is doomed to produce "spooky correlations at a distance". This has nothing to do with "weird" physics (other than the fact that nature has somehow managed to construct entities containing only one bit of information). It has to do with the misunderstood nature of information.

      Rob McEachern

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      Georgina,

      Real observable infinite surface does not have an invisible finite interior, or an invisible finite exterior. It is physically impossible for anyone to see a hole for there cannot be any invisible finite space in infinite surface. The surface of the hare always travels at the same speed as that of the tortoise does, whether one or both of them are alive or dead. Surface is unified. When you scratch your nose, all the rest of infinite surface is engaged in some other observable activity other than the scratching of your nose.

      Joe Fisher, Realist

      I forgot this thread, thanks for your answer Mr Agnew.It is a beautiful appraoch towards this gravity,we search it after all.

      Best Regards

      Joe,

      It might help if you explained your assertions, rather than just making them. I can accept that an observable surface does not include structure within because, if we are only talking about opaque surfaces the interior is not itself observable. Yet many biological and mechanical processes could not occur without the interior. I am not just a surface and nor is a car. I think you will have to do more than just deny the identify-ability of holes. My ability to see them, or rather the differences in the image produced from different intensities of received light is important so that I don't, for example, fall down them. I would find the hare and tortoise moving at the same rate comprehensible if you were talking about the potential sensory data within the EM radiation but you have said light doesn't travel and now are saying the surface does. Please explain what you are talking about Joe.

      Rob,

      I don't think the measurement problem only occurs for 1 bit signals.Interaction with the thing observed provides a measurement and also alters its location or behaviour from what it would have been without measurement. Making any subsequent measurement 'contaminated' by the interference with the thing observed. That seems to have come as a big surprise to physicists. I have read a description of that surprise that says something like "we can measure the velocity and position of a car with accuracy" and suggesting that it was size [alone] that made the difference. However the way in which macroscopic objects are considered means that often the measurements are not of the object itself but an image of it (formed from received EM information) allowing measurement without perturbation.If a direct measurement on the object is made there would be perturbation though it could be very small for a large enough object and gentle enough sensor.

      The other point is not a practical one but philosophical. Fixed Position and momentum (mv)are mutually exclusive. If the thing has a measurable velocity it doesn't have a fixed position (in that same frame of reference); and if it has a fixed position it doesn't have a measurable velocity (in that same frame of reference). That isn't a matter of size.

      You are missing the point. In tests of Bell's inequality, the whole point of performing a single measurement on each member of a pair of entangled particles, is to avoid the problem you have noted. But that can never avoid the problem that I have described; once you have measured one of the particles, there is NOTHING left to be independently measured, from the second.

      Rob McEachern

      Georgina,

      There is no clearer an explanation I could possibly provide than the indisputable fact that only observable infinite surface always illuminated by infinite non-surface light exists. You are confusing a finite separate independent you, or a finite separate independent motor car of consisting only of a finite surface and you are wrong. It could not physically possibly be. Either all visible and invisible physical phenomena is finite and separated and independent, or only UNIFIED observable surface is infinite.

      Joe Fisher, Realist

      Joe, the "indisputable fact" you have stated is not an explanation. You have not explained how something infinite is observable,or how you know the surface and the light are infinite. You have not explained what you mean by illumination. You have not explained how observation is possible; given your previous statement that light does not travel, and given the the structure and function of the visual system of an observer).Please explain why sub components of the infinite surface can not be considered, even if they are continuous with the whole? Your final either or doesn't work for me. There is a difference between what is observable and what exists (using what I understand by the term 'observable'-you have not described how your alternative with non moving light works). I accept the philosophical argument that the whole of what materially exists might be regarded as one unified system but that isn't what you are saying, I think. The structure of that final 'either or'needs revising to provide a good logical argument. Eg. Objects can be mentally isolated from the whole of the material universe for consideration without being considered independent of it.