Antony Garrett Lisi,

Re the fact that structure emerges from a graphical representation of a system, but the rules that control the system structure don't emerge from the system - the rules are in effect ex nihilo additions to the system:

In a complex system, anything that has control of the rules (that in turn control the parameter numeric value outcomes) has control of the system. E.g. if a pixel, in a graphical representation of a complex system, had agency and could occasionally make its own rule for one of its own parameter numeric value outcomes, then that pixel has partial control of the complex system in which it is immersed. In a graphical representation, "agency" is about control of the rules.

Getting back to real life, as opposed to graphical representations of systems, "the character of the natural world" we live in is fundamentally about agency: "quantum theory is fundamentally about agency". "In some way yet to be fully fleshed out, each quantum system seems to be a seat of active creativity and possibility, whose outward effect is as an "agent of change" for the parts of the world that come into contact with it. Observer and system, "agent and reagent," might be a way to put it." [1]

1. QBism: Quantum Theory as a Hero's Handbook, Christopher A. Fuchs & Blake C. Stacey, https://arxiv.org/abs/1612.07308

Garrett, you should read my footnote about "The Dream Child Hypothesis."

It talks about the emergence of dreams, and that they can exist on their own, before the self they have been waiting for exists. If the self never comes, dreams die, of course. But at least no self has died. Anyway, that's what the footnote is about-- the mathematics and the neuroscience.

The author offers an interesting interpretation of the structural development of matter in ever more complex shells with the notion of "emergence". However, he does not offer a mathematical basis or any element thereof as to how emergence is construed. Short of proposing a mathematical view of how intentionality emerges, some mathematical sense of the very construct of emergence should have at least been proposed in my view. Good flowing writing style though.

Hi Garrett,

I really enjoyed reading your essay.I think you present a really good argument and clearly explain emergence. I wonder do you really think it could be emergence all the way down (rather than turtles) and no foundational level of material reality; Or was that just a clever and amusing way to wrap the essay up?

    Hi Georgina,

    happy that you contribute to the discussions!

    Do you elaborate an essay for the current contest? Your ideas are always interesting.

    Best wishes

    Stefan Weckbach

    Dear Antony Garrett Lisi,

    you give a concise summary of the concept of emergence. I like your clear and straightforward writing style and you make your main points easy to trace.

    You point out that the core idea of emergence is its cumulative effects of systematical side-effects of some compounded systems. I understand these side-effects being systematical per definition (this is what the concept of emergence does) as correlations. These correlations - i assume - can come about at all because the underlying physics can do a remarkable thing: in some sense it can divide apart different physical properties of a physical entity.

    For example a big molecule. It has many locations at its spatial extension that react different to a physical interaction with another, well defined, physical entity than other locations of it would in this situation. So there are local forces that force the molecule to behave like an entity which is compounded by some smaller entities. But there are other forces that penetrate the molecule. The global force of gravity for example acts onto the molecule as if it wouldn't be composed out of smaller entities. Gravity - as we handle it mathematically - does 'only' act onto the center of mass of the molecule.

    So, intuitively, i see that the concept of emergence is an important one in science. But here comes my 'but': Does the fact that there are systematical side-effects in nature justify that one is allowed to define what has been meant by 'systematical side-effects' (one has meant by it the term 'emergence') that 'emergence' is a systematical property of all of nature? In other words, is 'emergence' a fundamental principle that can be extrapolated without limits in both directions - towards the very small and towards the very large? Are there necessarily in every aspect of fundamental reality systematical side-effects - to the result that what you define in your essay as 'emergence' should better be objectively termed as a kind of universal law with a kind of inevitable tendency implicit to it (the inevitable tendency to produce new properties in a law-like manner)?

    How could one then be able to formalize this universal law by objectifying it into a mathematically sound theory? Surely, this could not be done so easily, because per definition, the term 'emergence' implies that one cannot know in advance the special circumstances of the cumulating side-effects. But as you wrote, in principle this should be absolutely possible, giving the example of reproducing all our perceptions, experiences and emotions by a computer simulation. In this sense, one had to define 'emergence' as mere data processing. And here comes my criticism: the gap between mere data processing and a consciousness associated with perceptions, experiences and emotions. I doubt that such a simulation is possible and cannot see any justification for it other than the axiom you started with, that all things have to emerge out of lower-level constituents. Surely, if one accepts this premise, then such a simulation seems to be not so far at reach. But i really doubt it and ask myself what specific side-effects must there be to turn a mere data processing task into an observer. I know that the answer should be that there are millions of such side-effects involved, accumulating to the desired result. But i would not bet on this, because the more side-effects there are involved, the more error-sensitive the system would be in my opinion and this should then become regularily obvious in some way to the emergent property called 'consciousness'. So i tend to believe that emergence has its advantages, but also its fundamental limits.

    8 days later

    Thanks for your interesting article, I enjoyed it.

    If we arrange some match sticks we get a triangle. Or we get a square.

    But to get a square we have to add one more matchstick.

    Are squares and triangles real? Or just perception?

    All perception of these properties is derived from consciousness, which is itself by this logic an emergent property of the arrangement of biological life.

    So are any of these properties actually real?

    You say.... Hierarchical levels exist for human behavior. Say particle level, atomic level, chemical properties level, etc....

    But what will guide at the top level...?

    What is that top level... ?

    Why that level will decide the goals.....?

    Dear Garrett,

    I enjoyed reading your essay. Despite its brevity, it manages to make an important point: to paraphrase, that while in principle everything is determined by knowing the exact configuration of some fundamental stratum (if such exists) and the laws according to which it behaves, it is not generally the case that this knowledge suffices to effectively derive all facts on higher level strata. There are no shortcuts for complex systems.

    While thus everything is ontologically of one piece, epistemically, regarding our knowledge of the world, it is often practically impossible to reduce higher-level behaviours and properties to lower-level interactions (while the former are nevertheless completely determined by the latter). Hence, we observe the emergence of novelty in sufficiently complex systems---where 'sufficiently complex' here may be surprisingly simple: after all, even the three-body problem does not admit of a general analytic solution, and as you note, we tend to have to deal with systems (such as the human brain) which are a little bit more complex than that.

    But I would have hoped for a more in-depth discussion of how such emergence may proceed---that is, how one can use the concept of emergence in order to build a bridge between the base physical facts about the universe and the facts about, e.g., human psychology, which seem to differ from the physical facts in kind, and not just in degree. I think the essay would have gained much from a more explicit discussion in this regard.

      Thanks for this comment. You're right that this essay would benefit from an in-depth technical example of how emergence happens from one strata to another, but since there are a multitude of readily available examples within each scientific field, I chose to leave it as an exercise for the reader.

      9 days later

      Hello Mr Lisi,

      You merit a prize also, your technical method is very relevant.I learnt new things, thanks for sharing.

      All the best and good luck in this contest

      8 days later

      Dear Sir,

      We thoroughly enjoyed your essay.

      You are right when you say: "Our fates are not guided by mystical energies or the motions of the planets against the stars". But when you say: "Thought, passion, love... this internal world we experience, including all the meaning and purpose in our lives, arises naturally from the interactions of elementary particles", can you explain the mechanism? Can "unimaginably large numbers of interactions" "make this magic possible"? A mountain is made up of more number of quarks and leptons than human beings, which are subject to the same interactions on a larger scale. Do they exhibit similar emotions? The technological advancements in various sectors has led to data-driven discoveries in the belief that if enough data is gathered, one can achieve a "God's eye view". Data is not synonymous with knowledge. Knowledge is the concepts stored in memory. By combining lots of data, we generate something big and different, but unless we have "knowledge" about the "physical mixing procedure" to generate the desired effect, it may create the Frankenstein's monster - a tale of unintended consequences.

      You talk about emergent strata. But what is emerging? Is it the laws of Nature or their revelation to us? In the present context, the obvious answer is the second. But the first cannot be ignored. We find a set of rules that remain invariant through space and time. The same with objects (matter) and forces (energy). But then, we are also finding hints about their unification. They must have emerged from some common source. Our goal is to find that common source by moving from diversity to unity - not emergence, but convergence.

      Regards,

      basudeba

      Excellent writeup, though brief. Really enjoyed reading it, since it dovetailed very well with my own views regarding emergence. So far, I am yet to find another writeup that matches my views so closely. Somewhat depressing given that there are over 50 submissions already.

      The only place where I would beg to differ would be the outermost layers of emergence being sociology and economics. My essay is premised on the current final layer being the constitutional nation state. Economics can be shown to be embedded within it (as a kind of sub-emergence), but sociology probably can't be. At best, the constitutional setup can be modeled to rise naturally from the normal social interactions of people. I am not too sure, but I don't think that would qualify as sociology.

      Apparently, my essay is unfamiliar territory for most people on this forum. Do you think I should publish it on viXra for better feedback (they have a section for social science). I entered the contest primarily to get feedback on the work so that the mistakes could be rectified and the model could be improved. That doesn't appear likely as of now.

      Warm Regards, Willy

      I enjoyed this essay greatly Garrett..

      You do a really excellent job of summing up exactly what emergence gives us, where differences in kind arise from the shift in scale resulting from the vastness of huge numbers. I talk about a mechanism for emergence in my own essay, but you say almost everything I don't - the nuts and bolts of what it is - and I thank you for your effort. The brevity was refreshing, but also a little disappointing as your unique view on some points might be valuable - had you elaborated.

      Your contribution certainly adds to the mix, in this year's contest. Though brief; your essay has many useful insights. I hope you do well here in the contest, and I hope you enjoy our contributed efforts as well. I feature the octonions and mention E8 prominently, in my essay, so even though I don't mention your work specifically - I do talk about things you know about, or appreciate, and I'd value your opinion.

      All the Best,

      Jonathan

      Dear Anthony,

      A short and good essay on what I would agree as well is the path to the solution. You might be interested in my submission 'Intention is Physical' where I show how higher level goals and objectives can emerge as a tradeoff between energy dissipation and complexity.

      Natesh

      Dear Garrett, this beautiful text would make a great preface for a collection of more technical papers on different emergent phenomena. For the purpose of this contest I think it would have benefited from a more detailed discussion on how goal-oriented behavior fits into this general scheme of emergence. But I like your essay nevertheless. Cheers, Stefan

      Dear Garrett,

      I enjoyed reading your essay, which is well written and contains good arguments in favor of reductionism.

      I consider reductionism should be the default position, and give up only when it is clear that it won't work. In my essay I discuss some possible limitations of reductionism, and I would welcome your critical view on these.

      Best regards,

      Cristi Stoica

      The Tablet of the Metalaw

      Dear Antony,

      What a beautifully written essay! You caught the natural power of emergence in an almost poetic manner. However, science focuses on phenomena that can be mathematically modeled. This tendency has resulted in blind-spots when addressing an understanding of emergency. Within this area of interest there exists much more mystery. It can be beauty itself, but there exist unknowns too. I don't feel that in your essay. Thank you, Graham

      PS. Excellent last sentence... a nod to 'elephants'.