Hello Stefan,

I read your essay 2 or 3 three times and I got a lot knowledge and your thought about consciousness. May be my qualifications and knowledge does not coincide for high quality essay but I found something confusing in the essay as well.

I liked in the part when you said "Therefore, the terms goal, intention and meaning simply make no sense if every subject is eliminated from these terms. It would be like talking about thoughts and at the same time claiming that there is no need for a thinker of them." and I totally agree with it.

Also, the part " the whole universe is math" which I have discussed in my Essay:"Our Numerical Universe".

But I am a little confused about the part" wrongly assume to know all governing laws, even those of in-principle unobservable events." Is it that you meant that we ,human have used wrong mathematics for several assumptions they have made, because I think "Physics is all about assumption" and we were not always wrong about our assumption. Or maybe I am not fully grapsing your essay.

Also, I liked the part where you said the God is in greater consciousness than us. In my essay also I have written about part, "Can God be represented by Maths? I will be very happy If you check out my essay on link:http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2815

Though I am very young to judge your talent, but the essay was mindblowing and I gave a very high rate to it.

Best Regards from Himalayas

Ajay

Dear Eckard and Stefan,

Though I have very less knowledge about science and theories, I am sharing this because It always comes in my mind(and it may not be correct).

What I think is, as mentioned in my essay, that If any greater consciousness body, named "God" exist, then It must exist in higher dimension than us. If we listen to the religious people then we can often hear that 'God' has full control over us and that is only possible if the observer is in greater dimension than us which we can never predict(due to our limitations).

Also, we can connect several scientific theories with religious saying, for e.g " It is said that, if we do sin we are punished and vice-versa, which is seen to be connected to Newton's 3rd law of motion" To every action there is equal but opposite reaction"and it's just an example.

But as you said it's time to start now which I have mentioned in last part of my essay, I am inspired by that and I guess assumption, that makes sense, should be made as much as possible and tested by intelligent people for aims and intentions.

Best regards from himalayas

Ajay

  • [deleted]

Dear Ajay Pokhrel,

thank you for reading, commenting and appreciating my essay.

There are two possiblilities one can start from. First, assuming that we know all governing laws of the universe, they have yet to be interpreted properly. So we have Newtonian mechanics, relativity and quantum mechanics. From this point of view one now can ask where the consequences logically do lead us. Is the universe overall deterministic, is it stochastic, does anything emerge from a most fundamental level of description and how does this fundamental level of description has come into existence (if not eternal). One surely ends up with some eternal fundamental 'thing' and can ask if it makes sense to assume it to be indeed exclusively fundamental. This works fine in the usual buisness of physics and science, since in this daily business, the subject including consciousness, qualia, the impression of a kind of free will and living things per se do not matter much (except for biology and the higher siences).

But when it comes to questions posed by this essay contest, one can come into trouble. I tried to expose these troubles in my essay in a short, but hopefully thought-provoking manner. The troubles are, is consciousness merely an epiphenomenon (it produces consciousness like the kidneys produces urine), has a subject some kind of choice what to think, to conclude, whow to behave - has it some kind of free will. If true, how is this possible if one assumes the only governing laws to be the ones i mentioned above. And if consciousness can be derived as just a result of some physical interactions (maybe with some quantum twists within it to produce it physically), what does a system like a brain qualify to be conscious, in contrast to, say, a computer. Not surprising enough that consciousness, under these exclusively physically - and therefore also mathematically - premises should be possible at all (in comparison to, say, a computer), no, it is not only aware of some environment, but is also able to decipher huge parts (and if the above assumption that we already know all governing laws is true), if not all parts of the lawfull behaviour of reality. Although this reality then would be describable exclusively in terms of mathematics and logics, without no intelligent fundamental level of reality one is forced to ask the following question:

Is it logical that nature is logical, means, is it logical that logic does indeed exist and does consistently rule all of existence?

I think, the only way to solve these conundrums is to 'simply' assume an eternal source of creative intelligence, aka God. This may not be so simple for some people, because there are also good arguments to question the existence of such a God. Therefore in my essay i had to give some indirect arguments, arguments that are not mathematically as precise as we are used to think of science. But the possibilities for logic to make some reliable deductions is unfortunately limited and i therefore try to use another scientific (and debatable) tool, namely induction. I ask, what patterns can support aims and intentions as something that is genuinely valid, even beyond space and time. It cannot be mathematics, unless one assumes that mathematics is some kind of aware structure with aims and intentions.

Now to your question: If determinism and with it automatically mathematics has its limits (even in describing some simple problems like chaotic behaviour or the three-body-problem) and it additionally has been proven that most formal systems have limits of provability (they cannot differentiate between a necessity and a possibility), but we as intelligent beings can (because we can conclude that Gödel's results must mean that the mentioned systems must be consistent, but incomplete, otherwise these systems could prove everything, even the falseness of Gödel's results; so the assumption of consistence is necessarily true) what mathematics isn't able to do, this is a strong hint that mathematics is not all there is and surely is not the fundamental level of reality. If true, how then explain the existence of consciousness? By accumulated side-effects of fundamental physical laws? This is called 'emergence', but if emergence is true, it would be just another phenomenon which needs an explanation, because until now, nobody has traced all the assumed side-effects to show that they indeed lead to consciousness. Moreover, this emergence then must be understood as just another deterministic path nature does go. Therefore, whether we try to explain consciousness as a fundamental-particle phenomenon or as an emergent phenomenon does not make much difference, because emergence is bound to the fundamental particle level, as surprising as its effects may be. Surely, some kind of emerging properties are prsumably really there in the brain, i do not doubt this. The big question is if science and physics, concerned with these questions, is on a realistic path by generalizing the hitherto found results to be exclusively the only possibilities.

Now to the second possibility (mentioned at the beginning). To explain subjective impressions without behavioural functions like for example the impression of the color red, one comes into troubles. All the mentioned lines of reasoning let me conclude that we should be open to the possibility that the laws and regularities we found until now in nature - are incomplete. They will concern us again and again with the question wether the made assumptions to explain all the conundrums mentioned here are really exclusive, means necessary and complete, or merely possible in the sense that the resulting explanation scheme is consistent and is not plaqued by some contradictions. So, with unknown governing laws i mean some instructions which have the power to govern the physical course of affairs, even if they are imposed onto the universe from without space and time (either via a law of lawlessness - means an instruction before the beginning of time for the microscopic realms to behave stochastically and/or by interacting from outside spacetime onto the course of affairs via some power to alter probabilities).

In the latter case, altering some probabilities, one has the problem that it implies that the right probabilities are needed to generate consciousness in the brain. So, why rely on probabilities if one assumes well defined conditions for consciousness to arise? I make here a distinction: Altering probabilities is only a way to explain how an assumed unphysical entity (a soul) can have access to the functions of the body. It does not explain the production of consciousness in the brain per se. Therefore i presuppose that this soul is somewhat 'entangled' with material reality for the course of its lifetime. The interface between this soul and the brain has a twist which allows in certain domains that the one does influence the other, but not in all domains. Although a narcotized person has the impression afterwards that it had no consciousness, maybe what it experienced was similar to what a photo diode does experience. In contrast to our rich world of un-narcotized awareness, this narcotized state would seem like 'nothing'. Consciousness i think must have this ability to be dimmed down, even near-death experiences tell me this. So it well may be that consciousness and its contents are correlated (at least in this world) to specific frequencies, as frequencies are the only 'physical' think i can imagine as a regulatory property.

It was an honor for me to lay down my lines of reasoning for you and hope, they may be usefull for you and i have answered your questions (if not, feel free to ask!! No problem!!). Thank you also very much for your rating.

Best wishes,

Stefan Weckbach

    Hi Edwin,

    thanks for your comment and the very kind words.

    Yes, i think i forgot your essay, although it is at the top of the list. I will read it the next days in detail and will then comment on it.

    I do also believe in unity. As you may have noticed, i believe that there exists a God. In my comment to Ajay Pokhrel below, i gave some reasons for this belief.

    Some years ago, i did believe also in God, but more in an esoteric fashion, means an intelligent source, operating much like an algorithm (with reincarnation and all that stuff), but the problem of evil and some other reasons led me to conclude that there is a personal God. Especially my studies of many near-death experiences led me to conclude this. So, i have more faith in unity an universality than in, say, quantum mechanics. But for tackling the essay questions rationally and therefore hopefully also more convincing for the audience, it is necessary to assume the case that these laws are fundamental and then conclude where this logically could lead.

    My results of these conclusions are in my essay as well as in my comments here and on other essay pages and i am very happy that you could profit from what i wrote!

    I'll read your essay and comment on it, hopefully i have to say something substantial about it. And if i win a prize here, i will not only come to Chicago, but also to San Francisco, promised. It would be nice to meet some of the participants here personally; i think this would be a great adventure and also an enrichment for everyones worldview i think. Because, after all and besides all controversy and deductive competition and different experiences in life, we all are only humans!

    Best wishes,

    Stefan Weckbach

    Hello Stefan,

    I got my answers but as you have said you introduced God to solve the problems and also said that our mathematics cannot support the existence of those eternal body. I support your statement that Mathematics is mindless and not aware in itself but what i think is it is our(human) problem that we are always stucked with the philosophical description of God and we have never, seriously, tried to mix our mind with mindless math to prove existence of God, which is still considered as our limitations.

    Anyway the logic you gave me was verymuch understable for me, and I want you to view my essay and discuss the ideas that I have arised and give it a rating , if possible.

    Best Regards

    Ajay

    Dear Ajay Pokhrel,

    your work is important. We should investigate all options.

    In my comment above to Steve Dufourny at my essay page (Feb. 16, 2017 @ 17:09 GMT), i wrote about the number 3 and trinities. Maybe this is interesting for you.

    I will read your essay the next days and comment on it.

    Best wishes

    Stefan Weckbach

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    Dea Stephan,

    We both are searchers for the essence of our reality, not only the How but alo the Why.

    When you are saying : "consciousness aims to be not merely a cosmic accident but has an inner desire to be the intentional result of a meaningful process to have its roots within a greater consciousness (god) that should have the power to bring such a process at all into existence." then I agree with you about an external influence or mybe an external reason of our emergent phenomenon called reality. I don't call this an "author" but introduce the non formalisable Total Simultaneity.

    I think that maybe my essay "The Purpose of Life" may give you new insights, like yours did for me.

    I gave you an 8 because of the insights you gave and and acceptance that we never be 100% sure of our incoming information. I await your comment.

    best regards

    Wilhelmus

      Dear Stefan,

      Your essay is well-written, and discusses what you justifiably call "the hard problem of science" of goals, intentions and meanings seriously. This is indeed a very hard problem, both philosophically and scientifically. I tried to approach it partially in my essay too, and I am very aware of the difficulty of finding a balance between these problems and objective science. Good luck!

      Best regards,

      Cristi Stoica

      The Tablet of the Metalaw

        Dear Cristinel Stoica,

        Thank you for reading and commenting on my essay.

        I have already read and commented on your essay and i gave it a high rating due to its content and the contents of your reply to my comment!

        Best wishes,

        Stefan Weckbach

        Dear Stephan,

        Thank you for your honest comment on my essay.

        I would like to add some explanations for you that I post also on your thread:

        NDE:

        When our emergent body and mind complexity is reaching the finish of a certain life-line, it is still our restricted form of consciousness that stays "entangled" with Total Consciousness in TS. At that very point of the time-line, the restricted part (in the body) and the Total are very "close", so information of other available life-lines can leak through, or maybe even the singularity of Total Consciousness may become more "available" (maybe for us in the form of a bright light.

        Quantum observations by human beings.

        First of all I would like to enlarge the observers with animals, trees, plants etc, so every "living" agent. In my essay I indicated already that we are living in the past (80 milliseconds). The moment the "observation" is realised, the observer is not yet consciouss of what he observes. Furthermore each observation is about a wave function that gives us the probability of measuring the location or speed of a "particle". Once this probability has become a "certainty" it is about a certainty from the past. From the time of observation decoherence takes over, and the particle side of this emergent entity continues its way to the screen. (2 slit experiment). So decoherence is caused by measurement (observation). The specific time-line of the observer and its object has changed with the action of. The only neccecity for this event in our emergent phenomenon called reality is consciousness, because without consciousness ther would be no evaluation of the location/speed so no change....the wave would not "collapse". This is in agreement with my reamark that without consciousness there would not be any emergent phenomenon.This is the cause that we are experiencing the "FLOW" of reality.

        Multiverse:

        My perception is that each form of Multiverse and or paralel Universeis just an availability in Total Simultaneity that only becomes an emergent reality once there is a consciouss agent touching it with its (in our case) through time and space restricted life-line. The unity of Total Consciousness and Total Simultaneity (God ?) gives reason for nay time/life-line. Of course it is not a "physical" law in our own emergent reality, but just because of the fact that we are thinking about it (evaluations of our consciousness) confirms the existance of these probabilities.

        regarding : logical assumptions:

        You are right with your conclusion that me neither can explain EVERYTHING. Knowledge about different life/time-lines (that will always stay unknown by us because hey only "exist" as probabilities. It takes other emergent realities and consciousness agents to make them an experienced FLOW. ALL these flows (from agents) exist in TS. There is no time nor space in TS so we could even conclude that they are ALL represented as eternal singularities. The logic of my thoughts brought me to this perception taking in acount my own experiences (scientific and personnel).

        moral:

        When I am looking at our emergent reality and specifically our earth then I observe that each living being is just busy with survival (eating other species) and procreation (love and agression). The beauty of nature from flowers and the colours of autum are expressions of survival and procreation. The moment we a child is born it is for us the ultimate happiness. We don't yet take into account the food neede for continuing this life (his footstep on nature, the rest of the survivers). The counterside of this is that humanity is earching for a reason of life, the WHY. Religions are giving us support that there is a better life after death. Every human being (even atheists) is looking for GOD (their TEO). This search gives us a calm that has nothing to do with survival (in this earth) and procreation, but with our HOPE that after death there will be something better.

        It is this hope that drove me to search for a for me (and perhaps for others) acceptable explanation of GOD. My perception is not yet complete, I know, but I continue to think, and this essay contest , the essays I am reading (like yours) gives me more HOPE.

        best regards

        Wilhelmus

        Dear Wilhelmus de Wilde,

        thank your very much for your feedback to my comment on your essay page.

        Let's assume that these different time-lines do exist. Let's further assume that these alternative worlds are all configurations of all the things that can happen in our world (inclusively all the quantum possibilities, means all the different paths a particle can take and all the conscious decisions that are ever possible by conscious agents).

        The question for me is in what cases the universe i assume to live in since birth does change to another 'time-line'? If a quantum measurement occurs (either by decoherence or by some other process)? Or/and if a conscious being has made an irreversible choice? Does these time-lines switch for every thought i think?

        I would answer these questions by saying that - if those time-lines are indeed really available - that they change ('update') every time a situation occurs where a logical inconsistency would be produced by nature. For example in the case of the delayed-choice experiments. But what sense can one ascribe to an approximately infinite set of different time-lines available to 'only' conserve the consistency and rationality of the (physical) microworld?

        The only answer i have to this question is that quantum events are really random in the sense that even God does not know how a particle does decide its path/energy/position and that God also does not know all the decisions of 'me'. He may have a full description of all possible 'me's', but cannot figure out which one is really 'me'. Hm, does this make sense? I think not much, because in the latter case, there should be entities similar to me, but being *not* me - as in the traditional multiverse interpretations.

        The only sensible framework to incorporate these ideas is to think of reality as a kind of projection, a projection of activity into an assumed physically and spatially fundamental realm. This projection would project the results of a data processing stream onto spacetime. The only difference that has to be made here is to not assume this data processing to be a deterministic process, but being a program with some deterministic parts but also with many parts that are undefined until they interact with each other. This approach is similar to what Brian Withworth wrote in his essay from 2011 (http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/806). it could explain why particles don't have any properties until measured (until they interact).

        Reality may be a kind of virtual reality, driven by a program with deterministic and creative parts incorporated. A program which can alter its code somewhat. That this fundamental reality is projected onto spacetime seems not so problematic to me, since it could probably connected to some holographic attempts. Either way, to explain what fundamental level constitutes our reality, i think we have to somehow transcend the borders of space and time.

        Best wishes,

        Stefan Weckbach

        Dear Stefan,

        On your question : when are the changes taking place ?

        In my perception (theory) the reality you are aware of (formed by the memories you have from your birth untill NOW) is an "emerging phenomenon". When YOU are changing to another time/life-line maybe your new emergent memory contains a whole other "past". At hat very NOW moment you won't be aware of the changed memory. It will seem as if your life-line is continuing its "normal" flow. This can happen easily with emergent phenomenae. Concrete reality as we seem to experience is only an illusion (I don't like to use this word, but it explains the meaning sometimes easier than "emergent phenomenon". The changing of time-life-lines does not mean that the time/life-line you left is no longer "existing", indeed it doesn't exist any more in your New NOW experience, but still exists as "availabilities" (Eternal NOW Moments) in Total Simultaneity. It could be compared to changing to another document on your word processor, the documents you worked on before are still available on the harddisk.

        The what you are calling "updates" are not updates of NATURE, they are (see illustration 3 of my essssay) switches to other paths in TS, they have no influence on the emergent realities the agent iwas experiencing before the switch. Nature does NOT change (in the materialistic way). That is why I think that my perception is an easier explanation as the Many Worlds Interpretation, the splitting up in MWI leaves any moment two more "materialistc universes...while in mine the no longer experienced reality becomes (not in the new emergent reality) just a path of availabilities.

        The consistency and rationality of the physical microworld:

        Our collective memory informs us about the so called "progression" in our observations, from the pure philosophical ones of the Greek to the scientific results from the LHC and the perception of our UNiverse. This whole collective memory is a construction from a past , a specific time-line, forming the awareness of the position of our consciousness in this specific emergent reality.

        It consistancy and rationality is created by consciousness interpretations and dependant of the specific NOW moments experienced by its agents. They can change any moment...(see above).

        GOD does not know how a partcle....

        The quantum side of this emergent reality gives us already the idea of the blurriness of reality opposite to the much easier to understand concreteness of it. The lower the scale the more we approach the Planck Wall so Total Simultaneity and Total Consciousness, the more we are approaching the idea of GOD. Total Simultaneity and Total Consciousness are the ALL that we as restricted parts of it cannot understand. So although we are part of ALL as restricted emergent entity we cannot reach this totality (only hyperbolicly). My perception is that "GOD" (TS) does not need to "know" everything because it IS everything. The concepts "knowing" and "understanding" are imbedded in the restrictions of time and space.

        Projections result in a data stream onto spacetime:

        The word projections could be used to explain the contact between the emergent restricted consciousness and Total Consciousness in TS. I prefer to use the term of this "contact as entanglement. Space-time is an emergent entity from TS, the stream is NOT a stream, this stream also can be called the FLOW that we experience as emergent reality.(and is compressed in a NOW moment). This time restricted FLOW (stream) is only existing for the mergent agent in his emergent reality.

        The program that cannot be altered is in my opinion not a positive approach of our existence.First of all it is your free will at any ENM that that can change the flow of your life-line in TS. As a matter of fact the possibilities of so much probable life-lines is a very positive thought. The only back-draw is that we do not yet have the oppotunity to have infuence of REALLY change between these life-lines, at this very moment we may indeed be changing but still we are NOT AWARE. So I agree fullywith your last sentence : we have to transcend the limits (restrictions) of space and time in order to make a closer contact with Total Simultaneity.

        I hope this explained a little bit more my point of view and also hope you can give me a rating.

        best regards

        Wilhelmus de Wilde

        Stephan

        An excellent essay, with subtle and powerful reasoning.

        I especially liked:

        To eliminate the subject from the consideration of meaning "would be like talking about thoughts and at the same time claiming that there is no need for a thinker of them."

        "mathematics speaks to us, and the message is that there is more to existence than mathematical structures ever can deliver, not even an infinite tower of axiomatic turtles can do this."

        I would have encouraged you to exclude the part about near-death experiences, as it only gives the dogmatists a convenient target to divert upon. Your logical arguments are devastating unless they're carefully avoided.

        Stefan,

        When I am reading your posts, I always enjoy, although not always feel myself able to follow you :) . Well, anyway now it's your turn to visit our page, my dear colleague, express there your critical ideas about our essay and maybe score our aufsatz (german words sound sometimes so funny for my slavic ears :)).

        Yours, Alexey.

        Hi Stephan,

        I liked everything about your essay.

        There are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in FQXi essay questions.

        Thanks,

        Don Limuti (and do check out my essay!)

          Dear Alexey,

          thank you so much for your kind words. Yes, german words sound funny in the context of english language. For example 'Gedankenexperiment' or 'kindergarten'.

          I aready scored your essay high after having written the comment to you above, but i will re-read it and try to contribute something essential when i am able to.

          Best wishes,

          Stefan Weckbach

          Hi Don,

          thank you so much for reading, commenting and for the kind words!

          I will check out your essay soon!

          Best wishes,

          Stefan Weckbach