Thanks for the response Ed,

I understand your argument as being that the onboard clock mechanism, the oscillation rate of Cesium atoms, is altered in relation to the earth clock by the momentum imparted by acceleration to escape velocity. This would then reflect as you propose that the earth clock is stable in the local inertial frame and the sat-clock slow due to its orbit maintaining the momentum load on the Cesium.

So then the next question is; what in the 45,000 nanosecond/day advancing rate of the sat-clock at its orbital distance. The sum of the lag and lead results in the onboard clock registering 38,000 nanosecond/day ahead of earth time, and of course has to be continuously compensated to within a 50 nanosecond window. If the gravitational force due to energy density interaction, causes the Cesium to vibrate more rapidly, would that shed momentum over time? jrc

jrc,

Your first paragraph is essentially correct. Your second paragraph shows that you understand some of the mechanics.

The gravitational effect makes the satellite clock run faster, the special relativity effect makes it run slower. In essence, since in my theory the 'clock' is counting cycles, not measuring time, in GPS the counts are adjusted to make all clocks run at a common time, which Phipps calls 'collective time'. Having understood what they're doing, I have not delved into the details that you ask for, and it's not immediately obvious to me where variations enter the picture. The main point is that the clock 'adjustments' are always based on the ground clock running the fastest, which violates Einstein's special relativistic 'space-time symmetry' and validates my energy-time approach.

Going out this evening, so will be off-line.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Have a good time, Doc,

I have looked at it from a perspective of having a consistent unitary field rationale, but then the complexity that immediately evolves in considering even small numbers in aggregate, require some kind of ontology beyond 'stacking' oranges. The quantity of energy in aggregate fields of specific force densities must also be conceived as differentiating what makes positive from negative charge operate as observed without resorting to "well, I'll just make it rotate". I seriously think that as density characteristics go, what we observe as the earth's 'magnetosphere' measurable way out into space, is actually still at electrostatic density in the aggregate field volume. And probably only of the denser region we associate as *negative* that operates in separation of atomic centers. So I ponder that sort of thing to try to metaphysically develop a measurement ontology that might project as quantities of energy in bulk for the electrostatic, magnetic and gravitational volumes of the entire field. What I found just in a theoretical, background independent, free rest mass; is that smaller volumes in a sphere at higher density, consumes less quantity in that volume than does the variation of density decreasing across larger volumes, as a sphere's volume computes on radial increments. And that's true for any mass quantity sitting on the benchtop in the realm of contemplation. Most of the mass in my computations is in the outermost shell, just at a much lower energy density range. I have no guess at how vast the earth's gravitational limit would be if it were calculated as if in the void.

Ed,

Is there an orbital configuration (not necessarily for the Earth) wherein the effects of GR and SR exactly offset each other? If so, does that provide any insight?

Best Regards and Good Luck,

Gary Simpson

    G'morning Ed,

    I just ran across this browsing for generalized energy density estimations, and it looks a close fit with what you are doing. It is towards finding a scalar term for gravitational energy density in flat (Euclidean) space, and if its on NASA then they take it seriously. search tag:

    https://www.grc.nasa.gov/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/possible_scalar_term_#3

    onward! through the fog. jrc

    Dear Edwin Eugene,

    A fun and imaginative way to introduce the fundamental property(ies?) of time. Bringing popular and well-known physicists together in a situation for a discussion to write an excellent expository essay. thx

    However, we know that time essentially imposes a causality criteria on modern theory. That is best discussed in

    N. Seiberg, L. Susskind and N. Toumbas, "Space/Time Non-Commutivity and Causality", hep-th/0005015v3, May 2000. I would suggest that you consider that criteria, as it is (partly) solved by the No-Boundary Wave Function.

    But there are several other criteria. In fact Karen Crouther wrote a nice essay further delineating the requirements in a modern context.

    Among them is the requirement for finite particle representation geometry that replicates QC/ED quantum state algebra. The finitary criteria is necessary for mathematical consistency, per

    G. Takeuti, Proof Theory, Dover Publications, 1975.

    I explore these further criteria toward a logical foundational formula in my essay, which I encourage you to read as well.

    Wayne Lundberg

    https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3092

      Dear Gary,

      You ask an interesting question about orbits that allow SR and GR time dilation effects to cancel. I would expect such to exist, but have not calculated this. Since the 'escape velocity' is a very special value, I would start there and see how SR and GR compare. I like your curious mind. Often just thinking of the right question is the key to insight.

      Best,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Wayne Lundberg,

      Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

      I've looked at Seiberg, Susskind, and Toumbas on 'Space-time Non-commutation and Causality' - they discuss "the other term is an "advanced" wave which appears to leave the wall before the incoming packet arrived." They then say a conflict with Lorentz invariance is relevant. As you know I reject space-time symmetry in favor of an asymmetric energy-time interpretation of special relativity. Susskind's most recent book (my ref 19) claims to derive the Lorentz in two inertial frames, like Einstein. That this approach is inherently geometric is reinforced by Susskind's advice:

      "when confronted with one of these paradoxes, you should draw a space-time diagram".

      In other words, don't use logic (leading to 'paradox'), use geometry. Susskind is still big on strings, which many physicists have moved away from. Hartl, Hawking, and Hertog in "The Classical Universes of the No Boundary Quantum State" believe that the quantum state of the universe determines whether or not it exhibits a quasi-classical realm. I have very little faith in theories based on "the quantum state of the universe."

      If I understand your essay you wish to construct fundamental quanta and properties from geometry:

      "... All fundamental particle quanta, mass and energy quantities are attributed to a geometric basis [having a dual algebra, with no geometrical properties left over]."

      While I tend to agree concerning "foundational theorem which defines geometric-algebraic space-time objects.", I perhaps misunderstand the attempts to define "finite particle representation geometry" that replicates QC/ED quantum state algebra. While I believe geometric algebra is the proper framework: (combining algebra and geometry) I do not believe that elucidating the product terms [as I understand other essays to do] and placing them in one-to-one correspondence with the elementary particles is the correct approach. The LHC has shown that a perfect fluid results from Pb-Pb and Au-Au collisions, and I believe a fluid dynamics model is required to produce the particle zoo (utilizing Yang Mills gauge). I believe the pseudo-stable states resulting actually do have geometric properties, but I see these as 'end states'. I do not see geometric properties as initial states, and thus do not believe such geometry fundamental. I hope I have understood your essay correctly.

      My best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Edwin Klingman,

      In nature, everything is interconnected and, of course, time is connected with energy. Besides, time is associated with inertia, momentum, movement and space. The question is what connections are short and direct, and which are indirect? Let us consider these connections on the example of an electron. If the internal energy of an electron is kinetic energy, then any point that is part of the electron has zero rest mass and moves at the speed of light. The zero mass of points in a closed volume forms a nonzero mass of the electron. Here the points are very conditional definition - these can be any structures with nonzero dimensions. The motion of points inside an electron is an internal process of an electron. This motion causes a continuous change in the state of the electron, since each point continuously changes its spatial coordinates. The change in the state of the electron forms the proper time of the electron. Now imagine that the gravitational field has one single property - the action on the speed of light, and the smaller the distance to the central mass, the speed of light is less. Let the electron be placed in a gravitational field. In this case, all processes inside the electron slow down in proportion to the decrease in the local speed of light and this leads to a dilation of the electron proper time. In the case of an electron moving relative to the central mass, the average rate of processes inside the electron is additionally slowed down and this leads to an additional expansion of the electron proper time. Both forms of time dilation are observed in the GPS satellite system. In reality, the gravitational field has not one but two fundamental properties, and the combined action of these properties causes various adventures for the electron, including its gravitational acceleration. More details are shown in the essay.

      The length contraction caused by gravity can be discussed in the future. Here I note that the rate of time flow in different frames of reference can differ very much, but any two events that are simultaneous in one reference frame are also simultaneous in any other reference frame. So, I give You a high rating.

      Best wishes,

      Robert Sadykov

        Dear Edwin, time is not fundamental. Fundamental is the movement of physical space, which for Descartes is a matter. Time is a synonym of total movement space (ether, as you say). I appreciated highly your essay. You forgot to rate my essay. Look at my essay, FQXi Fundamental in New Cartesian Physics by Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich Where I showed how radically the physics can change if it follows the principle of identity of space and matter of Descartes. Evaluate and leave your comment there. Do not allow New Cartesian Physics go away into nothingness, which wants to be the theory of everything OO.

        Sincerely, Boris Dizhechko.

          Edwin,

          My work treats QCD color and QED charge and spin quanta as co-fundamental. The geometric-state algebra is an exact 1-1 with both existing taken together. I can easily write down a parallel to Dirac algebra, so I am not concerned about hypothetical ways of making QCD quanta appear 'derived'.

          I think I should better illustrate what a geometric-state algebra is, starting from simple B&W spinning coins to the more complex geometry required for QCD. Anyway, I'm sure that your space-time diagram treats particles as point-like, which is a mistake. Singularitues are prohibited.

          Wayne

          Dear Edwin,

          In your reply above to Markus Muller, you write that "Physicists have a way of sweeping problems under the rug. For example, Einstein's time dilation is symmetric in nature, but in reality (GPS) it is not."

          You make it more explicit a few comments after that:

          "Let me address your question about the failure of Einstein's 'space-time symmetry', in which "your clock runs slower than mine, while my clock runs more slowly than yours." This is supposed to be 'observer-dependent' as either can be the "rest frame". Thus, the GPS ground station will see the satellite clocks running slower, while the satellite should see the ground state clock as running slower. This does not happen! The ground state is always the fastest clock. This agrees with my energy-time interpretation of SR, in which clock rates are viewed as energy state dependent and are asymmetrical, but contradicts Einstein's 'space-time symmetry'."

          It may well be that your interpretation does reproduce the observed results, but I would respectfully like to point out that Einstein's theory also does! In Einstein's theory, because of the relativity of simultaneity, it is true that two INTERTIAL observers moving at constant speed relative to each other will each consider that the other's clock is running slow --- what you call "space-time symmetry". But if one or both observers are accelerated, this is no longer true. You don't even have to consider General Relativity: in an accelerated frame, your definition of simultaneity changes constantly, and it is quite possible that you will consider the clock in another reference frame to be ticking faster.

          A nice discussion of this often misunderstood effect can be found here:

          Don Koks (2009) Do Moving Clocks always run slowly?

          http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/movingClocks.html

          All the best!

          Marc

            Edwin,

            The bartender omits a crucial question in what is an argument about the nature of time. And that is; what physical form does light actually have in a modern tavern? In Ollie and Jim's day the luminiferous aether was seen as a real medium necessary for a warpage taking the form of a transverse wave to conduct a quantity of energy across space, even though it was calculable that it would physically have to be more rarefied than any known gas while having a rigidity comparable to steel. So in your conception that energy density is effectively the universal medium, and that density could be expected to vary in accord with 1/r^2 for gravity to be understood as an interaction of densities of energy; what is the physical form that EMR takes/ does it have a 3D shape/ how does it stay confined to a linear projection that would be necessary for e=hf to be consistently observed?/. If the nature of time is going to be argued on the back of light velocity, and how that can vary with energy density, then the other customers ought to know what light is.

            An essay cannot convey all the mathematical arguments you work from, so could you give a wholistic panorama in least technical terminology, of how it all comes together? There has been a great deal of interest in your essay, but its gotten so dissected its like Hilbert space out here. best as always, jrc

              Infinite mass is a misnomer for the induction reactance of energy density. In a co-variant domain of one inertial frame, what goes to infinity is the infinitesimal DIFFERENCE at light velocity of that reactance to induction from applied field strength. I've argued that all along. jrc

              Helolo dearv Edwin,

              I loved and enjoyed your essay, it was a real pleasure to read and I learn in the same time.I liked also your words about the ether, I consider personally a gravitational aether.Congratulations for this general work and this interpretation of time.

              Good luck, you merit also a prize like cristi ,congratulations still.

                Dear Wayne Lundberg,

                We do have different models of QED/QCD, while we do agree that geometric algebra is the most appropriate tool. But I'm not sure where you got the idea that my space-time diagram treats particles as point-like. My model of particles is extended in space, not singularities. My particle model is not really discussed or implied by my essay.

                I'm thankful that FQXi invites all of us to contribute our ideas to this forum. I think we all benefit from these exchanges.

                Best regards, Edwin Eugene Klingman

                Dear Robert Sadykov,

                Your first paragraph describes a model of the electron that is extended and dynamic, and we agree on these aspects. Some details differ between our models, but, as you say, "the gravitational field has not one but two fundamental properties" [as shown in my equations (1)]. While I reject the non-intuitive 'space-time symmetry' of Einstein, I do believe that the non-linear self-interaction of the gravitational field interacting with ultra-dense particles is very difficult for our intuition to grasp. I have performed iterative calculations using Mathematica that show nonlinear effects to be significant.

                Thank you for observing that

                "The rate of time flow in different frames of reference can differ very much, but any two events that are simultaneous in one reference frame are also simultaneous in any other reference frame."

                No one else has stated it that way!

                Thanks,

                Edwin Eugene Klingman

                Dear Boris,

                My essay does not state that time is [the most] fundamental. It argues that the fundamental nature of time is universal simultaneity, which Einstein destroyed when he added multiple time dimensions to physical reality, essentially adding a "universal time" to every moving object of interest. You and others consider "the movement of physical space". In my thinking space is an attribute of the field, and it is the field that is dynamic, not space, per se. I think the field, through possession of energy, is "material", not space per se.

                I will reread your essay and try to leave a meaningful comment.

                Best regards,

                Edwin Eugene Klingman

                Dear Marc Séguin,

                Thank you for reading my essay and comments.

                You say

                "It may well be that your interpretation does reproduce the observed results, but I would like to respectfully point out that Einstein's theory also does!"

                You are correct that Einstein and I both derive the Lorentz transformation - he from two inertial frames, I from two different energies in one frame [my ref 12]. When applied to energy problems (such as time dilation) we should agree. This is analogous to different interpretations of QM [which share the same math] agreeing.

                According to my reference 10 Einstein's 'space-time symmetry' effects [common terminology, not 'my' terminology] have never been measured. If light propagates in local gravity [a preferred frame, contradicting Einstein's basic principle] then this makes sense.

                When one formulates the problem[s] as if two inertial frames [including separate times t' =/= t] exist, one arrives at paradoxes that require considerable pretzel logic to "explain". I've noted that Susskind advises one to "draw a space-time diagram" in these cases. That is consistent with the geometric nature of translating between two 4D frames.

                My view is that Lorentz applied to energy is physical, Lorentz applied to transformation between two frames is geometric. If the two 4D frames are non-physical, the predicted results will not be seen [ref 10]. Energy phenomena are real and so calculations do match measurement.

                You are correct that acceleration [implicit in GPS] does complicate the situation, further disturbing the idea of 'perfect clocks'. I will review the link you have graciously provided.

                Thanks again for your well thought out comments and for contributing to this forum.

                My best to you,

                Edwin Eugene Klingman

                Dear jrc,

                You ask a powerful question. Just as Feynman famously said no one understands QM, I believe Einstein claimed that no one understands the photon. I do have a 'picture' in mind that is compatible with equation[s] (1) in my essay. As I've noted on Avtar Singh's essay page, I believe he's correctly noted [his postulate I] the need for examining kinetic energy of the photon more closely.

                To address this [the answer to your question] here in a comment is next to impossible. I don't handle FQXi equation formatting well, and FQXi doesn't allow figures to be inserted. Also, my arguments extend to the non-linearity of gravity, which is still not appreciated as meaningful by the majority of physicists. Key to the argument is that changing the ['weak-field'] equations to ignore non-linear terms [recovered through iteration] does not change the physical nature of gravity. The consensus appears to be that it does change the nature of gravity and so non-linearity can be ignored. I believe this to be a significant mistake.

                It is not the 1/r^2 nature of gravity so much as the mass density dependence of gravito-magnetic circulation [hence angular momentum] that is significant. I formulated the equations to solve this and will attempt to solve and graph these using Mathematica, but that won't happen in this comment.

                I don't think of "the nature of time ... argued on the back of light velocity", but rather as the dual of energy. Nevertheless, it is valid to ask what a photon "looks like".

                You reasonably ask for "a wholistic panorama in the least technical terminology, of how it all comes together." I will try to answer in a continuation of this comment.

                Thanks,

                Edwin Eugene Klingman