Dear Jonathan Kerr,

I enjoyed your essay immensely, and not just because you focused on the fundamental nature of time.

You ask exactly what I mean when I say SR implies two time dimensions. I base this on Rindler's definition of inertial frame as one in which spatial relations (as determined by rigid scales at rest in the frame) are Euclidian and in which there exists a universal time [such that Newton's laws of inertia hold] and on Einstein's formulation of his two principles of relativity in terms of (at least) two inertial frames.

One might say the "universal time" is the same in both inertial frames, but Einstein goes on to derive the Lorentz transformation in terms of t' =/= t, so that the times clearly are not the same universal time. That they can share one time t' = t = 0 in common does not make them the same time. If they had no point in common they would be impossible to relate to each other, effectively separate elements of a multiverse. The Lorentz transformation of 4D entities mixes time and space based on the idea that the time axis can be rotated from t' into t. If there's only one universal time then t' = t and it does not mix time and space.

As I develop in the essay, time does not 'dilate'; it 'flows equably through all space'. Local "clocks" measure energy, which is conjugate to time, and each 'tick' is a measure of a local time interval that is characterized by the energy of the clock mechanism. Motion-based energy differences of clocks do not represent variations in the time dimension, which is simultaneous across all space.

Daryl Jansen, back in the day, argued strongly that the 4D block time is nonsense and that any discussion of it immediately introduces a fifth dimension where things change. Nothing changes in block time. It exists only because of the Minkowskian idea of 4D rotations in 'space-time'. If time does not mix with space (it doesn't) then the 4D block time is a mathematical artifact, having no physical reality.

I agree with you that conceptual physics is the best way forward, but many react to new concepts as if they were the plague.

Thanks again for reading and commenting on my essay.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear jrc -

Thanks for offering to read my essay again; it's 'chock full of nuts' and probably requires more than one reading to appreciate. [I certainly would not extract all the ideas in one reading.]

I certainly agree that conjecture is what we base new physics on, just as "a guess" is often where we obtain new mathematical solutions. I'm generally not friendly to the idea of a cyclic universe, but I have no drop-dead argument against it. It's probably a personal inclination.

You are correct that no scale (other than the Planck scales) exist, and light speed rather relates time and space to a field that crosses space and time. I come at the basic scale question from a different direction, but it doesn't fit nicely into a comment.

Thanks again for (re-)reading and commenting.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Edwin Eugene Klingman

You explored nicely about the Fundamental Nature of Time using equations of Einstein with deHaas in SR dear Edwin Eugene Klingman, it's a large amount of work. .......... very nice idea....... I highly appreciate your essay and hope you also will go thro my essay and spend some of the valuable time on Dynamic Universe Model also and give your some of the valuable & esteemed guidance

Some of the Main foundational points of Dynamic Universe Model :

-No Isotropy

-No Homogeneity

-No Space-time continuum

-Non-uniform density of matter, universe is lumpy

-No singularities

-No collisions between bodies

-No blackholes

-No warm holes

-No Bigbang

-No repulsion between distant Galaxies

-Non-empty Universe

-No imaginary or negative time axis

-No imaginary X, Y, Z axes

-No differential and Integral Equations mathematically

-No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to GR on any condition

-No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models

-No many mini Bigbangs

-No Missing Mass / Dark matter

-No Dark energy

-No Bigbang generated CMB detected

-No Multi-verses

Here:

-Accelerating Expanding universe with 33% Blue shifted Galaxies

-Newton's Gravitation law works everywhere in the same way

-All bodies dynamically moving

-All bodies move in dynamic Equilibrium

-Closed universe model no light or bodies will go away from universe

-Single Universe no baby universes

-Time is linear as observed on earth, moving forward only

-Independent x,y,z coordinate axes and Time axis no interdependencies between axes..

-UGF (Universal Gravitational Force) calculated on every point-mass

-Tensors (Linear) used for giving UNIQUE solutions for each time step

-Uses everyday physics as achievable by engineering

-21000 linear equations are used in an Excel sheet

-Computerized calculations uses 16 decimal digit accuracy

-Data mining and data warehousing techniques are used for data extraction from large amounts of data.

- Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true....Have a look at

http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/p/blog-page_15.html

I request you to please have a look at my essay also, and give some of your esteemed criticism for your information........

Dynamic Universe Model says that the energy in the form of electromagnetic radiation passing grazingly near any gravitating mass changes its in frequency and finally will convert into neutrinos (mass). We all know that there is no experiment or quest in this direction. Energy conversion happens from mass to energy with the famous E=mC2, the other side of this conversion was not thought off. This is a new fundamental prediction by Dynamic Universe Model, a foundational quest in the area of Astrophysics and Cosmology.

In accordance with Dynamic Universe Model frequency shift happens on both the sides of spectrum when any electromagnetic radiation passes grazingly near gravitating mass. With this new verification, we will open a new frontier that will unlock a way for formation of the basis for continual Nucleosynthesis (continuous formation of elements) in our Universe. Amount of frequency shift will depend on relative velocity difference. All the papers of author can be downloaded from "http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/ "

I request you to please post your reply in my essay also, so that I can get an intimation that you replied

Best

=snp

  • [deleted]

  • Post #75

Hello Edwin,

Here are some things that I have concluded reading your essay:

1) Your essay says that Time is used to derive energy; since mass has energy, time can be fundamental both in quantum and classical mechanics.

2) There is no proper clock

3) You are the Tavern Keeper.

Your essay was, truly a well-written essay and of course, different from others. I enjoyed many parts of your essay and indeed learn many things.There were some parts which disturbed me. I am going to point them out:

1. "In other words, Einstein, there are no perfect clocks -- all are subject to local energy conditions. You entirely ignore this reality; positing 'perfect clocks' and a method to synchronize perfect clocks, and then you imagine the clocks measuring different time dimensions" This particular part, where you (Or HH) assumes that there is no perfect clock to measure the time dilation or for other purposes. I agree with the statement but we cannot say some phenomenon is not perfectly true (in this case time dilation and Lorentz contraction) only because we cannot observe them clearly; for instance, in quantum mechanics we assume several things, from the momentum of particles to their position in space and we assume their uncertainty given by uncertainty principle. Similarly, we also assume that body cannot exceed 'c' speed although we have not seen if a body can exceed. What I mean is that we have some limitations to prove things correctly; hence we use the term 'precisely'. We use mathematics and pattern to derive something and if we go on questioning the result produced by them by matching them with what we cannot predict in real life due to our limitations, then it might occur that many theories could be not perfect as well. It is just what I think, could you reflect your views on this.

Also, I came to know about your description above and I found out that one of your papers from 1979 describes how numbers and math derive from physical reality; meanwhile my essay explain how physical realities are derived from numbers, patterns and mathematics. I think we can have a great discussion on my topic.

Also, a month ago, I came across this article "Changing the arrow of time" which might me of some interest to you.

Anyway, your essay is one of the enjoyable essays with facts and best among other. Your Essay got my best points as well. I wish you all the best for the competition.

Kind Regards

Ajay Pokharel

    Edwin,

    Sorry, it was me who posted this. I did not know how I logged out.

    Regards

    Ajay

    Dear Edwin,

    Here we are again with essays in another contest. I appreciate very much the stimulating comments you wrote about my essay. Given your comments, I can see that I need to clarify and extend my thinking, and perhaps to modify it, on several matters. Although I do not suppose that believing something (for example, that free will is an illusion, or that it is not) makes the belief true for the person who believes, the relations among truth, belief, and illusion can get complicated when the belief is about the person who believes or about the believing process itself. Then too, I need to think more about the way in which the human predicament, or at least the predicament of an individual human being, is shaped by the thoughts of that individual, including self-referential thoughts about the individual's personal condition and about the human condition in general. And finally, you raise the important issue of degrees of consciousness. You refer specifically to Zen and similar disciplines. The point of Zen might be that the problems of being conscious are not inherent in consciousness as such and therefore do not beset all forms of consciousness. From a perspective like that of Zen, one might say that there is a form of consciousness without any awareness of an individualized subject of consciousness. It would be awareness without awareness of itself, without awareness of any subject having or doing the awareness. I am inclined to believe that this kind of consciousness does exist and that some people sometimes by effort or by accident do attain it. Nonetheless, most people most of the time exist for better or for worse with ordinary human consciousness.

    But here I want to comment on your essay. I do not fully understand why you attribute to Einstein a belief in multiple time dimensions. I had thought that in the standard view of physicists there is only one time dimension, although there are three dimensions of space. (We leave aside string-theory speculations about additional spatial dimensions.) Again, according to what I have read, space and time are two different things, although it is not clear, at least not clear to me, what the difference is, and it is not clear whether the full difference between the two is described or explained in the equations of physics.

    I had thought that the matter of varying measurements involving time and space, including varying opinions about whether two events are or are not simultaneous, amounted to something like this: There is only one time for the entire universe. This universal time is defined by the reference frame in which the universe is expanding uniformly. Two events are really simultaneous if and only if they are simultaneous when observed in this reference frame. This preserves universal simultaneity as fundamental to the nature of time, which is the principle you assert on page 9 at the conclusion of your essay. The relativity of measurements, including differing measurements of simultaneity, comes into the picture because all measurements are local processes within the universe. No observation process or measurement process occurs from the vantage point of the universe. Hence, all observations are modified by local conditions. One might even say that the modifications are distortions. The modifications apply to all physical processes. The modifications apply to all human observations, insofar as those observations are or rely upon physical processes. My understanding of Einstein's special and general theories of relativity is that they provide, among other things, ways of correlating one distorted local measurement with other distorted local measurements. Using Einstein's procedures one could also correlate local measurements to the the universal perspective, the perspective of universal time, if one cared to do that. However, rarely if ever is there a practical need for that. This at any rate was how I had understood matters. I do not see how to change this view in the light of the considerations you bring forward.

    I am not sure whether the distinction between mathematical structures and physical reality is relevant to these issues. In any case, I certainly agree with the statement that you quote from Tim Maudlin at the bottom of page 2. We should not confuse a mathematical structure with physical reality, or even with physical possibility, regardless of how detailed the mathematical structure might be.

    Perhaps you have already answered my questions in the essay or in responses to other comments. However that may be, thank you for a very thought-provoking essay.

    Laurence Hitterdale

      Poor me, poor me, poor me,

      pour me

      another glass of whiskey.

      Bartender hit me one more time.

      Well, okay Ed, that is a lot of mathematical argument to digest. And while I have long given up on the traditional Classical concept of universal time, I am also well aware of good arguments for the practical usage of it in local field representation. It just always seems to leave me questioning whether the many arguments for constant metronomic universal time that support the Quantum Mechanical Cartesian measurement space, are really all that complete. Now... bear with me a moment because I may have missed it; how fast did you say this universal time goes? :-) jrc

      Hello Edwin,

      Thank you for your positive comments on my essay, glad you enjoyed it.

      Incidentally, the link I posted above goes to the wrong page, it's here. I'd appreciate it if you'd rate my essay, I've only had one rating so far.

      It's worth pointing out that neither time nor energy are well defined at present, so although one might perhaps interpret SR by making either one or the other change (in the standard view both change), it's not a 'deepest level' interpretation, it's an intermediate level one. My own approach is to try to find the deepest level before assuming much on the way. SR has many equivalent configurations (it's a bit like a Rubik's cube), but there may be only one configuration that goes anywhere.

      I think your idea that SR has two time dimensions is about the derivation, rather than what's in SR. It seems you're saying that dilated time is derived via a universal time - to me that doesn't mean the theory has both, it's just a way to get to the theory.

      About energy and time - a point I've made is that they go in opposite directions, if you look at the two different kinds of time dilation. (I know you don't believe in time dilation, I mention it to make a point about the relationship between energy and time.)

      In motion time dilation, an object's energy increases as its time rate slows down - inverse proportion.

      In gravity time dilation, an object's energy decreases as its time rate slows down - direct proportion.

      (With gravitational time dilation, although this is about position in the field, it can be about an object moving towards a mass.)

      So I think not only are both time and energy unexplained, the relationship between them needs some explaining as well.

      Wishing you all the best, Jonathan

      Dear Laurence,

      Thanks for your comment. I'm very pleased that my comment on your page stimulated your thinking. Your first paragraph above captures what I had in mind.

      You are the second commenter to question Einstein's two time dimensions. My response to Jonathan Kerr above partly addresses this. The definition of inertial frame is expressed in terms of "a" universal time frame, not "the" universal time frame, and the fact that t' is not equal to t indicates to me that his times differ from universal. You say the standard view of physicists is there is only one time dimension. My experience this last year in discussions with competent physicists is that there is much confusion. In particular (see my endnotes) my attempt to analyze the railway station and a railway flat car in one inertial frame (surely the railway car can be analyzed in the frame of the station!) is met by insistence on introduction of the second 4D coordinate, with t' =/= t, AND by insistence that the light passing over the flatcar in the station's frame is different from the speed of light passing over the flat car from the car's frame. In essence, my physicist friends defending SR re-define my one-frame problem (which is solvable) as two "real worlds", each with its own space-time and associated speed of light with reference to each "rest frame". This often amounts to a refusal to analyze the problem in one inertial frame.

      The analysis and derivation of the Lorentz transformation in one inertial frame is found here: An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame.

      I've written but not yet published analysis of Einstein's faulty "simultaneity detector" and have designed an experiment to detect the speed of a railway car from within the car with no reference to outside information, impossible according to SRT. I believe this has utility and plan to file for a utility patent so I've not yet published this approach.

      In short, Einstein's formulation of relativity in terms of inertial frames, each of which has its own space-time and associated speed of light [see Rindler's comment] leads to 'paradox' and non-intuitive non-sense, which do not accompany an energy-time interpretation in one inertial frame. I know for a fact that the better the physicist, the harder it appears to be to re-conceptualize this problem. My opinion, expressed in last year's FQXi essay, is that we can have 'paths' in our brain that "hold" incompatible beliefs/logic, but the paths are separated and we go down only one path at a time. This is tolerated by saying that "nature is non-intuitive" or "our brains did not evolve to understand [fill in the blank]." I do not believe this. I think it traces to faulty assumptions.

      I am grateful to FQXi for providing this forum in which I see many of the participants' ideas improving year after year. I suspect much of the improvement comes from our ability to discuss these issues in comments.

      My very best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Edwin:

      I very much appreciate your critique of Einstein's work and the confusion some of inconsistencies have caused. I was especially intrigued with the realization that if velocity is taken into the time derivative Maxwell's equations could be made invariant under Galilean transforms. This is an important paper.

      However the conclusion seems to suggest that there is only one universal time and transforming t into t' does not make sense. I've always been in favor of Lorenz's interpretation of the Michelson-Morely experiment but appreciated Einstein's multiple independent space time attached to different coordinate frames. My difficult with Einstein is that he did not go far enough in defining the role of the observer. He talks about observer riding along with coordinate frames when each observer is a coordinate frame. If the railcar analysis is carried through to what an observer actually experiences by tracing the signals from coordinated frame detectors back to the display inside the frame on which the measurement results are displayed then it would be clear that each of us observers experience our own space and time.

      Giving up a single fundamental space time background is necessary if we are to properly include the observer in physics theories as my paper suggests.

      Since you include R. Cahill in your references and experiments to determine the velocity within a moving inertial frame you must be familiar with his claim to have developed such a measurement using correlations with random number generators. We worked hard with Cahill to try to verify these measurements but have been unsuccessful.

      Sorry forgot to add my name to the post

      And congratulations on a very good paper.

      Wolfgang Baer

        Lawrence,

        Further to your above comment. When you discuss the expanding cosmos as the basis of simultaneity, you're bringing a later conception into the 1905 picture. As indicated in my essay, Einstein contradicted himself at various times in his long productive career. Nevertheless, he never went back and re-stated special relativity in terms of his later belief in 'gravity as ether'. The 1905 paper is based on 'no ether' and that is the reason for 'attaching' the speed of light to the moving objects (see his quote on 'railway car and rails' and Rindler's "not for us to ask why!". So I would tend to agree with you that a more sophisticated approach today might indeed consider a universal time, but when you bring 'reference frames' into the picture you automatically bring 'attached' speed of light and that jimmies the whole works. I think SRT has to be re-conceptualized from space-time to energy-time in order to restore a logical perspective. Yes, of course the math "works" in SR, but the energy-derived Lorentz works without the 'space-time symmetry' nonsense [which is NOT supported by GPS.]

        Best,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear Wolfgang Baer,

        Thank you for your gracious comments. Your essay looks very interesting; I will read it and then comment. Here I will respond to your remark about Cahill. I am aware of his many claims about experiments, and I have not studied these (I have a friend who is looking at Cahill in more depth) so I'm very interested in your attempts to verify his measurements which you say were unsuccessful.

        Cahill's attempt to map between Galilean and Lorentz covariant formulations are based on his declared definition of non-physical time and space coordinates. He claims

        "If this [non-physical] formula were to be taken to be fundamental, it would be an allegory for twentieth century physics."

        Thus Cahill appears to say/imply that Einstein's 'moving' space-time form is non-physical. In fact he states:

        "The Lorentz covariance of the Maxwell equations only occurs because of the use of non-physical space and time coordinates."

        Cahill makes many other statements, but his dependence on non-physical space and time coordinates is his Achilles' heel in my estimation. As I note, the Lorentz transform can be derived in one inertial frame [i.e., without non-physical space and time] by focus on energy, with the advantage that relativistic particle physics is preserved and Einstein's gedanken experiments are dismissed, as is space-time symmetry. Cahill's view is conflicted in my opinion, and the conflicts are tied to his conception of gravity as a quantum effect. Since I have not studied his experiments, I very much appreciate your comment about their lack of reproducibility.

        From your comment, you might find An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame worth reading.

        I look forward to your essay.

        My very best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        geneman,

        I'll give you that. I was about to send an email but it would take an essay, so maybe I'll save that to become a paperback writer. People would benefit by a revival of bending a book on airplane rides anyway.

        So I'll stick with where I'm in agreement. (1) SR is mathematically complete geometrically, just not physically. And (2) it only enters GR as elapsed time on a curve, it is not a radial measurement on any single pole in a spherical volume. (3) Gravitation is not negligibly weak nor for that matter the weakest of primary force effects, it is characteristically dominant where the densities have dropped below effective range of the other primaries. (4) A proper unitary field model must categorize force effects by characteristic behavior of energy under density constraints of the entire quantity of energy constituting the inertial mass. (5) It is the amount of energy in a given field of effective range, interacting with the complimentary effective amount that we measure as intensity. So at the inertial core of a hypothetical free rest mass, only a near trivial percentage of the total quantity would be required to produce a density proportional to the whole that would thereby translate inertia throughout the limit volume. And while the much greater volumes that would concentrically arrange across the continuous density range specific to the primary force effects would progress outwardly towards lower density, those volumes would require ever more greater percentage of the unitary energy quantity. Gravitation is by far then the strongest of the primary force effects.

        What has stumped efforts in unification, is that you can't get an unambiguous distribution of energy in accord with inverse square law determining a spherical boundary using integration over partial differentials. Even if you assign empirical upper and lower density bounds, the proportions will follow a linear progression until the outermost layer of the onion, and then the slope will change, everytime. Add a layer, that's where the slope changes. So you always end up with a feedback, not a zero boundary. I ran across a collection of Einstein's writings years ago and he comes tantalizingly close when he described how he came to choose a spherical geometry for GR. He wrote in splendid prose about the divergence of radii, no matter how close. So you can easily see that on any of an infinite number of radii, the energy would distribute in accord with inverse square law along that radii ... but what about the rest of the volume of the sphere between the divergence of radii!?! That's the mathematical problem. There's more space for energy distribution between the buttons that on them!

        And on and on it goes. Best as always, jrc

        Dear Ajay Pokhrel,

        Thank you for reading and commenting on my essay. You say that I say "time is used to derive energy." That is not quite what I say. I say that the energy-time conjugate relation is a more appropriate interpretation of the Lorentz transformation than is 'space-time symmetry' of the sort made famous by Einstein.

        You also say that there is no 'proper clock'. Instead I say there is no 'perfect clock' of the type postulated by Einstein in his gedanken experiments. I point out that clocks are physical systems that are energy dependent, and this fact is ignored by Einstein.

        You, in your use of 'proper' may have keyed off of the use of d(tau) in equation (3) on page (3). I worried that in retaining the symbols used by both Hertz and Einstein the tau would confuse people. Their d(tau) is NOT the 'proper time' that is the usual interpretation today.

        You quote that there is no 'perfect clock'. Einstein's idea was that perfect clocks, synchronized at one point, remain in sync and that time itself changes when the clock is in motion. I claim that the motion changes the energy of the system that the clock is 'counting' and this is misinterpreted by Einstein to imply that time "dilates". Instead, time flows unchanged everywhere, but local clocks reflect local conditions and actually measure local energy/frequency, NOT the universal time dimension.

        As for the speed of light, it is based not on the 'moving body' that Einstein attaches it to, but on the local medium or 'ether' that Einstein claims does not exist. [He later claimed it does.] Hence the relative speed of light seen by the body moving with speed v with respect to the medium is v c, not c. The speed of light itself does not change locally.

        The above is all precise. It implies that Einstein's "attachment" of light to moving entities is unrealistic and leads to logical problems. The light is "attached" to the local medium or ether, not the particular bodies moving through the ether.

        I hope this removes your expressed concerns.

        Finally, you note my work in describing how numbers derive from physical systems (counters) while you believe physical reality derives from numbers. That is the great divide in today's physics, and I do not observe anyone "switching sides", in this case.

        Thank you for critical reading of my essay. I will read yours and comment.

        Best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Edwin,

        Thank you for clarification.

        Best Regards

        Ajay Pokharel

        Dear Wolfgang, having now read your paper:

        Since you injected the Magic Theater into FQXi, I'll use it as an occasion to answer a little more metaphorically than usual. Harry Haller was warned against "putting too high a value on time. ... It is the 'eternity at the back of time' that is the kingdom of truth. The magic theater; the world of pictures, not realities."

        It's possible that the "fundamental shift in our world view" due to quantum mechanics is a world of pictures, not realities.

        Like Harry, "all the hundred thousand pieces of life's game are in my pocket." Physicists, like Harry, can "meditatively with an artistic skill, make up a new game of the same pieces with quite other groupings." "In this fashion the clever architect built up one game after another out of the figures..." I believe this can be so only if a primordial field exists, all physical reality a continuum of energy/mass where self-interacting physical reality can take all of the stable forms we know, as well as support energy transformations from place to place and time to time. Never does this self interacting underlying nature change, but the pictures and events "attain an endless multiplicity of moves in the game of life."

        If this is so, the field is gravity, and the emergent statistical tool of quantum mechanics draws pictures to describe highly contrived events or experiments. It pretends to describe non-contrived events, such as the cat, but this too shall pass.

        Quantum pictures can "emerge" from the correct understanding of gravito-electro-magnetism, but the whole cannot "emerge" from quantum pictures. As you note of a "typical quantum experiment examining a Bell inequality... A mental jump is made. He imagines photons radiating into his equipment... However he has never seen a photon, or for that matter light itself."

        Sometimes one has to step back and look at it.

        Congratulations on a wonderful essay and good luck in the contest.

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear Edwin;

        You had a very good insight when you pointed out that "Physicists can project mathematical structure onto reality and can come to believe that the corresponding physical structure is reality".

        I like they way you presented your discussion (a "trialog" between the three geniuses that originated modern physics), but, knowing the epistemological and ontological problems that plague the traditional fundamental concepts in physics, I felt like reading a treaties on the "Sexes of Angels".

        Note:

        There is a solution to the Heaviside-Hertz electro- and gravito-magnetic theory without having to include mass in the photon. In the same way as there is no electric charge in the photon, and it has associated an electric field, there is a gravitational field associated to the photon without it having mass (see "EMG Theory of the Photon, http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/links/Papers/EMG%20III.pdf).

        I wish you had time to read in my essay my concept of space, space-time and time.

        Yours;

        Diogenes