Hello Edwin,

Thank you for your positive comments on my essay, glad you enjoyed it.

Incidentally, the link I posted above goes to the wrong page, it's here. I'd appreciate it if you'd rate my essay, I've only had one rating so far.

It's worth pointing out that neither time nor energy are well defined at present, so although one might perhaps interpret SR by making either one or the other change (in the standard view both change), it's not a 'deepest level' interpretation, it's an intermediate level one. My own approach is to try to find the deepest level before assuming much on the way. SR has many equivalent configurations (it's a bit like a Rubik's cube), but there may be only one configuration that goes anywhere.

I think your idea that SR has two time dimensions is about the derivation, rather than what's in SR. It seems you're saying that dilated time is derived via a universal time - to me that doesn't mean the theory has both, it's just a way to get to the theory.

About energy and time - a point I've made is that they go in opposite directions, if you look at the two different kinds of time dilation. (I know you don't believe in time dilation, I mention it to make a point about the relationship between energy and time.)

In motion time dilation, an object's energy increases as its time rate slows down - inverse proportion.

In gravity time dilation, an object's energy decreases as its time rate slows down - direct proportion.

(With gravitational time dilation, although this is about position in the field, it can be about an object moving towards a mass.)

So I think not only are both time and energy unexplained, the relationship between them needs some explaining as well.

Wishing you all the best, Jonathan

Dear Laurence,

Thanks for your comment. I'm very pleased that my comment on your page stimulated your thinking. Your first paragraph above captures what I had in mind.

You are the second commenter to question Einstein's two time dimensions. My response to Jonathan Kerr above partly addresses this. The definition of inertial frame is expressed in terms of "a" universal time frame, not "the" universal time frame, and the fact that t' is not equal to t indicates to me that his times differ from universal. You say the standard view of physicists is there is only one time dimension. My experience this last year in discussions with competent physicists is that there is much confusion. In particular (see my endnotes) my attempt to analyze the railway station and a railway flat car in one inertial frame (surely the railway car can be analyzed in the frame of the station!) is met by insistence on introduction of the second 4D coordinate, with t' =/= t, AND by insistence that the light passing over the flatcar in the station's frame is different from the speed of light passing over the flat car from the car's frame. In essence, my physicist friends defending SR re-define my one-frame problem (which is solvable) as two "real worlds", each with its own space-time and associated speed of light with reference to each "rest frame". This often amounts to a refusal to analyze the problem in one inertial frame.

The analysis and derivation of the Lorentz transformation in one inertial frame is found here: An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame.

I've written but not yet published analysis of Einstein's faulty "simultaneity detector" and have designed an experiment to detect the speed of a railway car from within the car with no reference to outside information, impossible according to SRT. I believe this has utility and plan to file for a utility patent so I've not yet published this approach.

In short, Einstein's formulation of relativity in terms of inertial frames, each of which has its own space-time and associated speed of light [see Rindler's comment] leads to 'paradox' and non-intuitive non-sense, which do not accompany an energy-time interpretation in one inertial frame. I know for a fact that the better the physicist, the harder it appears to be to re-conceptualize this problem. My opinion, expressed in last year's FQXi essay, is that we can have 'paths' in our brain that "hold" incompatible beliefs/logic, but the paths are separated and we go down only one path at a time. This is tolerated by saying that "nature is non-intuitive" or "our brains did not evolve to understand [fill in the blank]." I do not believe this. I think it traces to faulty assumptions.

I am grateful to FQXi for providing this forum in which I see many of the participants' ideas improving year after year. I suspect much of the improvement comes from our ability to discuss these issues in comments.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Edwin:

I very much appreciate your critique of Einstein's work and the confusion some of inconsistencies have caused. I was especially intrigued with the realization that if velocity is taken into the time derivative Maxwell's equations could be made invariant under Galilean transforms. This is an important paper.

However the conclusion seems to suggest that there is only one universal time and transforming t into t' does not make sense. I've always been in favor of Lorenz's interpretation of the Michelson-Morely experiment but appreciated Einstein's multiple independent space time attached to different coordinate frames. My difficult with Einstein is that he did not go far enough in defining the role of the observer. He talks about observer riding along with coordinate frames when each observer is a coordinate frame. If the railcar analysis is carried through to what an observer actually experiences by tracing the signals from coordinated frame detectors back to the display inside the frame on which the measurement results are displayed then it would be clear that each of us observers experience our own space and time.

Giving up a single fundamental space time background is necessary if we are to properly include the observer in physics theories as my paper suggests.

Since you include R. Cahill in your references and experiments to determine the velocity within a moving inertial frame you must be familiar with his claim to have developed such a measurement using correlations with random number generators. We worked hard with Cahill to try to verify these measurements but have been unsuccessful.

Sorry forgot to add my name to the post

And congratulations on a very good paper.

Wolfgang Baer

    Lawrence,

    Further to your above comment. When you discuss the expanding cosmos as the basis of simultaneity, you're bringing a later conception into the 1905 picture. As indicated in my essay, Einstein contradicted himself at various times in his long productive career. Nevertheless, he never went back and re-stated special relativity in terms of his later belief in 'gravity as ether'. The 1905 paper is based on 'no ether' and that is the reason for 'attaching' the speed of light to the moving objects (see his quote on 'railway car and rails' and Rindler's "not for us to ask why!". So I would tend to agree with you that a more sophisticated approach today might indeed consider a universal time, but when you bring 'reference frames' into the picture you automatically bring 'attached' speed of light and that jimmies the whole works. I think SRT has to be re-conceptualized from space-time to energy-time in order to restore a logical perspective. Yes, of course the math "works" in SR, but the energy-derived Lorentz works without the 'space-time symmetry' nonsense [which is NOT supported by GPS.]

    Best,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Wolfgang Baer,

    Thank you for your gracious comments. Your essay looks very interesting; I will read it and then comment. Here I will respond to your remark about Cahill. I am aware of his many claims about experiments, and I have not studied these (I have a friend who is looking at Cahill in more depth) so I'm very interested in your attempts to verify his measurements which you say were unsuccessful.

    Cahill's attempt to map between Galilean and Lorentz covariant formulations are based on his declared definition of non-physical time and space coordinates. He claims

    "If this [non-physical] formula were to be taken to be fundamental, it would be an allegory for twentieth century physics."

    Thus Cahill appears to say/imply that Einstein's 'moving' space-time form is non-physical. In fact he states:

    "The Lorentz covariance of the Maxwell equations only occurs because of the use of non-physical space and time coordinates."

    Cahill makes many other statements, but his dependence on non-physical space and time coordinates is his Achilles' heel in my estimation. As I note, the Lorentz transform can be derived in one inertial frame [i.e., without non-physical space and time] by focus on energy, with the advantage that relativistic particle physics is preserved and Einstein's gedanken experiments are dismissed, as is space-time symmetry. Cahill's view is conflicted in my opinion, and the conflicts are tied to his conception of gravity as a quantum effect. Since I have not studied his experiments, I very much appreciate your comment about their lack of reproducibility.

    From your comment, you might find An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame worth reading.

    I look forward to your essay.

    My very best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    geneman,

    I'll give you that. I was about to send an email but it would take an essay, so maybe I'll save that to become a paperback writer. People would benefit by a revival of bending a book on airplane rides anyway.

    So I'll stick with where I'm in agreement. (1) SR is mathematically complete geometrically, just not physically. And (2) it only enters GR as elapsed time on a curve, it is not a radial measurement on any single pole in a spherical volume. (3) Gravitation is not negligibly weak nor for that matter the weakest of primary force effects, it is characteristically dominant where the densities have dropped below effective range of the other primaries. (4) A proper unitary field model must categorize force effects by characteristic behavior of energy under density constraints of the entire quantity of energy constituting the inertial mass. (5) It is the amount of energy in a given field of effective range, interacting with the complimentary effective amount that we measure as intensity. So at the inertial core of a hypothetical free rest mass, only a near trivial percentage of the total quantity would be required to produce a density proportional to the whole that would thereby translate inertia throughout the limit volume. And while the much greater volumes that would concentrically arrange across the continuous density range specific to the primary force effects would progress outwardly towards lower density, those volumes would require ever more greater percentage of the unitary energy quantity. Gravitation is by far then the strongest of the primary force effects.

    What has stumped efforts in unification, is that you can't get an unambiguous distribution of energy in accord with inverse square law determining a spherical boundary using integration over partial differentials. Even if you assign empirical upper and lower density bounds, the proportions will follow a linear progression until the outermost layer of the onion, and then the slope will change, everytime. Add a layer, that's where the slope changes. So you always end up with a feedback, not a zero boundary. I ran across a collection of Einstein's writings years ago and he comes tantalizingly close when he described how he came to choose a spherical geometry for GR. He wrote in splendid prose about the divergence of radii, no matter how close. So you can easily see that on any of an infinite number of radii, the energy would distribute in accord with inverse square law along that radii ... but what about the rest of the volume of the sphere between the divergence of radii!?! That's the mathematical problem. There's more space for energy distribution between the buttons that on them!

    And on and on it goes. Best as always, jrc

    Dear Ajay Pokhrel,

    Thank you for reading and commenting on my essay. You say that I say "time is used to derive energy." That is not quite what I say. I say that the energy-time conjugate relation is a more appropriate interpretation of the Lorentz transformation than is 'space-time symmetry' of the sort made famous by Einstein.

    You also say that there is no 'proper clock'. Instead I say there is no 'perfect clock' of the type postulated by Einstein in his gedanken experiments. I point out that clocks are physical systems that are energy dependent, and this fact is ignored by Einstein.

    You, in your use of 'proper' may have keyed off of the use of d(tau) in equation (3) on page (3). I worried that in retaining the symbols used by both Hertz and Einstein the tau would confuse people. Their d(tau) is NOT the 'proper time' that is the usual interpretation today.

    You quote that there is no 'perfect clock'. Einstein's idea was that perfect clocks, synchronized at one point, remain in sync and that time itself changes when the clock is in motion. I claim that the motion changes the energy of the system that the clock is 'counting' and this is misinterpreted by Einstein to imply that time "dilates". Instead, time flows unchanged everywhere, but local clocks reflect local conditions and actually measure local energy/frequency, NOT the universal time dimension.

    As for the speed of light, it is based not on the 'moving body' that Einstein attaches it to, but on the local medium or 'ether' that Einstein claims does not exist. [He later claimed it does.] Hence the relative speed of light seen by the body moving with speed v with respect to the medium is v c, not c. The speed of light itself does not change locally.

    The above is all precise. It implies that Einstein's "attachment" of light to moving entities is unrealistic and leads to logical problems. The light is "attached" to the local medium or ether, not the particular bodies moving through the ether.

    I hope this removes your expressed concerns.

    Finally, you note my work in describing how numbers derive from physical systems (counters) while you believe physical reality derives from numbers. That is the great divide in today's physics, and I do not observe anyone "switching sides", in this case.

    Thank you for critical reading of my essay. I will read yours and comment.

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Edwin,

    Thank you for clarification.

    Best Regards

    Ajay Pokharel

    Dear Wolfgang, having now read your paper:

    Since you injected the Magic Theater into FQXi, I'll use it as an occasion to answer a little more metaphorically than usual. Harry Haller was warned against "putting too high a value on time. ... It is the 'eternity at the back of time' that is the kingdom of truth. The magic theater; the world of pictures, not realities."

    It's possible that the "fundamental shift in our world view" due to quantum mechanics is a world of pictures, not realities.

    Like Harry, "all the hundred thousand pieces of life's game are in my pocket." Physicists, like Harry, can "meditatively with an artistic skill, make up a new game of the same pieces with quite other groupings." "In this fashion the clever architect built up one game after another out of the figures..." I believe this can be so only if a primordial field exists, all physical reality a continuum of energy/mass where self-interacting physical reality can take all of the stable forms we know, as well as support energy transformations from place to place and time to time. Never does this self interacting underlying nature change, but the pictures and events "attain an endless multiplicity of moves in the game of life."

    If this is so, the field is gravity, and the emergent statistical tool of quantum mechanics draws pictures to describe highly contrived events or experiments. It pretends to describe non-contrived events, such as the cat, but this too shall pass.

    Quantum pictures can "emerge" from the correct understanding of gravito-electro-magnetism, but the whole cannot "emerge" from quantum pictures. As you note of a "typical quantum experiment examining a Bell inequality... A mental jump is made. He imagines photons radiating into his equipment... However he has never seen a photon, or for that matter light itself."

    Sometimes one has to step back and look at it.

    Congratulations on a wonderful essay and good luck in the contest.

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Edwin;

    You had a very good insight when you pointed out that "Physicists can project mathematical structure onto reality and can come to believe that the corresponding physical structure is reality".

    I like they way you presented your discussion (a "trialog" between the three geniuses that originated modern physics), but, knowing the epistemological and ontological problems that plague the traditional fundamental concepts in physics, I felt like reading a treaties on the "Sexes of Angels".

    Note:

    There is a solution to the Heaviside-Hertz electro- and gravito-magnetic theory without having to include mass in the photon. In the same way as there is no electric charge in the photon, and it has associated an electric field, there is a gravitational field associated to the photon without it having mass (see "EMG Theory of the Photon, http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/links/Papers/EMG%20III.pdf).

    I wish you had time to read in my essay my concept of space, space-time and time.

    Yours;

    Diogenes

      Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

      While I don't like beer, and my computer has minor problems to correctly reproduce all formulas, I would like to recomment your paper "An energy-based derivation of Lorentz tramsformation in one inertial frame" to all teachers of physics worldwide:

      "We only need the Lorentz tramsformation when energy is taken into account, such as is required for particle physics."

      May I suggest you commenting on Michelson's late (1923?) experiments too?

      Best,

      Eckard

      Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

      an interesting essay, but a dangerous technique. While it is quite natural to think in terms of such discussions - theoretical physics is, last but not least, argumentation, and requires that counter-arguments are answered - the discussions we imagine in our mind certainly differ from real discussions a lot. First of all, in a positive way, because nobody falls back to ad hominem and nobody proposes completely stupid counterarguments. But, on the other hand, finally, the opponents in our imagined discussions give up and admit we have the better argument (if not, we change our own position, instead of writing it into a paper). This happens also if our own arguments have weak points we have not recognized. In real discussions, even among scientists today, you will seldom find such agreement.

      This makes such dialogues always very unrealistic. A point which holds also for classical examples like Socrates.

      The problem becomes much more serious if we use, as our opponents in the imagined discussion, not no-names we have invented ourselves, but real scientists. This essentially changes how one reads the dialogue. Even if it is only a ghost of Einstein who participates, every place where Einstein admits you are right is dangerous. Even if you would be really right, not everybody will agree with this, And those who will not agree will make conclusions which are very unfavorable for you, like "oh, this is one of the many ether cranks who claim to have found logical errors in Einstein's theory". And you receive immediately 10 points for point 18 of the Baez' crackpot index http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html So, the story you use is an extremely dangerous technique, far too open to attack, and extremely difficult to defend.

      And it is indeed not that difficult to find things attributed to Einstein which may be reasonably questioned:

      AE: My dear Prof. Hertz, I never realized that your equations of electrodynamics are Galilean invariant.

      Of course, if EM is an ether theory, it does not have any problem with Galilean invariance, the preferred frame of the Maxwell equations is simply the rest frame of the ether, and one can, of course, rewrite them for a frame moving against the ether too. I think (or I would guess, without having studied this) this was the standard position of pre-relativistic scientists about Galilean invariance for the Maxwell equations of a luminiferous ether. Today it is the standard view about sound wave equations in condensed matter theory too. To assume that Einstein was somehow unaware of this is at least questionable.

        Well... one can't please everyone.

        As you focus on sound wave equations in condensed matter (which I treat briefly in my endnotes) and upon the global versus local aspects of Lorentz, I was hoping for more technical feedback from you.

        This is an essay contest that does not target children so I assume that readers can cope with the fact that this vehicle tends to favor my own arguments. I found it a way to get a large amount of information into nine pages. I also link to a recent derivation of the Lorentz transformation in one inertial frame that is novel as all special relativity derivations require two inertial frames.

        Since your essay is largely based on Lorentz symmetry, I can only assume that my approach calls yours into question. Actual arguments would've been better than hurling crackpot and voting a 1, but it takes all kinds.

        Finally, you seem to say that when people read 'Einstein' in my essay, they are unduly influenced. If this is true it implies that people been unduly influenced by 'Einstein' for 100 years.

        I think you underestimate the readership of FQXi. .

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear jrc -

        You say "SR is mathematically complete geometrically, just not physically." Yes. This is why Leonard Susskind, head of physics Department at Stanford, says in his new text, "Special relativity and classical field theory", the following:

        "Special relativity, and until you get used to it, is counter-intuitive - perhaps not as counter-intuitive as quantum mechanics, but nevertheless full of paradoxical phenomena. My advice is that when confronted with one of these paradoxes, you should draw a space-time diagram. Don't ask your physicist friend, don't email me - draw space-time diagram."

        In other words, attack it geometrically, not physically. Physically it doesn't make sense.

        As for your points 2.) through 5.), I think we're in general agreement. Many of my previous essays have addressed these issues. It is the self-interaction that makes gravity boss when densities are of the right order. GR completely fails to handle the self-energy of the gravitational field. And the spherical geometry is designed for gravito-electric (radial) not gravito-magnetic (vortex). This affects both the teaching and practice of GR.

        I await your paper back. I still read them.

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Copied from a jrc thread above:

        You say "SR is mathematically complete geometrically, just not physically." Yes. This is why Leonard Susskind, head of physics Department at Stanford, says in his new text, "Special relativity and classical field theory", the following:

        "Special relativity, until you get used to it, is counter-intuitive - perhaps not as counter-intuitive as quantum mechanics, but nevertheless full of paradoxical phenomena. My advice is that when confronted with one of these paradoxes, you should draw a space-time diagram. Don't ask your physicist friend, don't email me - draw space-time diagram."

        In other words, attack it geometrically, not physically. Physically it doesn't make sense.

        As for your points 2.) through 5.), I think we're in general agreement. Many of my previous essays have addressed these issues. It is the self-interaction that makes gravity boss when densities are of the right order. GR completely fails to handle the self-energy of the gravitational field. And the spherical geometry is designed for gravito-electric (radial) not gravito-magnetic (vortex). These issues affect both the teaching and practice of SR and GR.

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

          Comparing last year's essay to this wonders if it is the same author. I pray we live long enough to make more contribution. The old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat. You've skinned this well. I come from an accelerator lab. I won't overplay my hand and pretend to be a machine physicist, but I do have basic grasp of relativistic synchrotron operation. I am a bit confounded by the statement "all light propagates in local gravity". I don't know how to relate this to what I understand about SR. I am weak in GR. The electrodynamics of moving bodies refers also to charged particles. In particular electrons, protons, and ions up to gold in various charge states. In a billion dollar government machine (ring) these particles reach relativistic velocities easily and routinely. For v

            Hi Edwin

            Great essay once again. Count on a top ranking from me.

            Yes, gravity as Ether. Gravitational fields act as preferred reference frame. And to be preferred reference frame is a battle won by the larger dominant local mass. A car submits to the Earths preferred frame. The Earth submits to the suns preferred frame. Unless you are very very close to the car, or close to the Earth. Nearby Photons submit to the Earths Gravitation field as a preferred reference frame, they can be thought of in terms as being trained by Earths gravity, giving mmx results.

            You question times operation as a fourth dimension and provide an alternative viewpoint in its stead. That at its fundamentals, relativity is a consideration of kinetic energy. Clock cycle counts, and variations of their cycle count can be interpreted as varied expressions of energy. And I believe you are correct.

            Clocks after all are driven by mechanical force, not time. What is the nature of the justification for, "mechanical force drives clocks, but clocks measure time? No! Clocks are driven by force, therefore clocks measure force. And the clocks forces acting in relative environments of space and motion can be defined in terms of variable energy or force.

            If two identical wind up clocks are wound up equally, then one placed near a large mass and one afar the large mass. Dilation effects having done their thing, then bring the clocks together for comparative. We note the hands are advanced on the space born clock, but then we peel off the clock faces for comparative of the springs. Like the clock hands, the spring from space displays an advanced position, and because a springs position can be defined in terms of how much energy or force it has expressed, (force over distance) the comparative of the two clocks can accurately be described as being "force Dilated". Clocks dont measure time dilation, they measure a definable quantity that is "force dilation".

            When you associate relativities effects with a variable kinetic energy value, then it must be that your referring to a variable value of atomic energy/force. Atomic energy/force corresponding to mass, let us presume a variable Baryon mass.

            Scaling atomic kinetic energy, scaling mass dependant on gravity's distance square law. It can be said that Baryon mass scales dependent on square law proximity to matter. "proximity to matter Edwin!". That includes proximity of stars to each other within spiral galaxies.

            If you scale atomic force/mass dependent on square of average distance between stars in spiral galaxies, it readjusts the mass distribution within galaxies. Placing it as a precise antidote to deviation from General Relativities prediction. Because, the average distance between stars increases by square of distance from a galaxies centre. This proscribes an increase in baryon mass proportionate to square of distance from galaxy centre. As an ideal geometric solution.

            Energy is indeed as you say, a primary consideration of relativity. Not time. This translates to consideration of Atomic energy/mass. Your hypothesis predicts anomalous galaxy rotations.

            MOND attempts to adjust gravities square law, and although it comes tantalizingly close, it doesn't quite achieve it. This is because atomic force/mass is the variable instead of gravities square law.

            My essay isn't up yet, so hopefully it will be qualified soon. It details these considerations in greater detail. I'd love for you to take a look if you will please?

            Steve

            Thanks Ed,

            I have found much agreement with you on a number of matters, and try to refrain from arguments about time. It is too personal a passion for everyone though few admit it. Ultimately none escape it though many wish to believe they will. :-) jrc

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