The Fundamental Nature of Time by Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

Thank you for clarification.

Best Regards

Ajay Pokharel

Dear Edwin;

You had a very good insight when you pointed out that "Physicists can project mathematical structure onto reality and can come to believe that the corresponding physical structure is reality".

I like they way you presented your discussion (a "trialog" between the three geniuses that originated modern physics), but, knowing the epistemological and ontological problems that plague the traditional fundamental concepts in physics, I felt like reading a treaties on the "Sexes of Angels".

Note:

There is a solution to the Heaviside-Hertz electro- and gravito-magnetic theory without having to include mass in the photon. In the same way as there is no electric charge in the photon, and it has associated an electric field, there is a gravitational field associated to the photon without it having mass (see "EMG Theory of the Photon, http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/links/Papers/EMG%20III.pdf).

I wish you had time to read in my essay my concept of space, space-time and time.

Yours;

Diogenes

Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

While I don't like beer, and my computer has minor problems to correctly reproduce all formulas, I would like to recomment your paper "An energy-based derivation of Lorentz tramsformation in one inertial frame" to all teachers of physics worldwide:

"We only need the Lorentz tramsformation when energy is taken into account, such as is required for particle physics."

May I suggest you commenting on Michelson's late (1923?) experiments too?

Best,

Eckard

Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

an interesting essay, but a dangerous technique. While it is quite natural to think in terms of such discussions - theoretical physics is, last but not least, argumentation, and requires that counter-arguments are answered - the discussions we imagine in our mind certainly differ from real discussions a lot. First of all, in a positive way, because nobody falls back to ad hominem and nobody proposes completely stupid counterarguments. But, on the other hand, finally, the opponents in our imagined discussions give up and admit we have the better argument (if not, we change our own position, instead of writing it into a paper). This happens also if our own arguments have weak points we have not recognized. In real discussions, even among scientists today, you will seldom find such agreement.

This makes such dialogues always very unrealistic. A point which holds also for classical examples like Socrates.

The problem becomes much more serious if we use, as our opponents in the imagined discussion, not no-names we have invented ourselves, but real scientists. This essentially changes how one reads the dialogue. Even if it is only a ghost of Einstein who participates, every place where Einstein admits you are right is dangerous. Even if you would be really right, not everybody will agree with this, And those who will not agree will make conclusions which are very unfavorable for you, like "oh, this is one of the many ether cranks who claim to have found logical errors in Einstein's theory". And you receive immediately 10 points for point 18 of the Baez' crackpot index http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html So, the story you use is an extremely dangerous technique, far too open to attack, and extremely difficult to defend.

And it is indeed not that difficult to find things attributed to Einstein which may be reasonably questioned:

AE: My dear Prof. Hertz, I never realized that your equations of electrodynamics are Galilean invariant.

Of course, if EM is an ether theory, it does not have any problem with Galilean invariance, the preferred frame of the Maxwell equations is simply the rest frame of the ether, and one can, of course, rewrite them for a frame moving against the ether too. I think (or I would guess, without having studied this) this was the standard position of pre-relativistic scientists about Galilean invariance for the Maxwell equations of a luminiferous ether. Today it is the standard view about sound wave equations in condensed matter theory too. To assume that Einstein was somehow unaware of this is at least questionable.

Comparing last year's essay to this wonders if it is the same author. I pray we live long enough to make more contribution. The old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat. You've skinned this well. I come from an accelerator lab. I won't overplay my hand and pretend to be a machine physicist, but I do have basic grasp of relativistic synchrotron operation. I am a bit confounded by the statement "all light propagates in local gravity". I don't know how to relate this to what I understand about SR. I am weak in GR. The electrodynamics of moving bodies refers also to charged particles. In particular electrons, protons, and ions up to gold in various charge states. In a billion dollar government machine (ring) these particles reach relativistic velocities easily and routinely. For v

Hi Edwin

Great essay once again. Count on a top ranking from me.

Yes, gravity as Ether. Gravitational fields act as preferred reference frame. And to be preferred reference frame is a battle won by the larger dominant local mass. A car submits to the Earths preferred frame. The Earth submits to the suns preferred frame. Unless you are very very close to the car, or close to the Earth. Nearby Photons submit to the Earths Gravitation field as a preferred reference frame, they can be thought of in terms as being trained by Earths gravity, giving mmx results.

You question times operation as a fourth dimension and provide an alternative viewpoint in its stead. That at its fundamentals, relativity is a consideration of kinetic energy. Clock cycle counts, and variations of their cycle count can be interpreted as varied expressions of energy. And I believe you are correct.

Clocks after all are driven by mechanical force, not time. What is the nature of the justification for, "mechanical force drives clocks, but clocks measure time? No! Clocks are driven by force, therefore clocks measure force. And the clocks forces acting in relative environments of space and motion can be defined in terms of variable energy or force.

If two identical wind up clocks are wound up equally, then one placed near a large mass and one afar the large mass. Dilation effects having done their thing, then bring the clocks together for comparative. We note the hands are advanced on the space born clock, but then we peel off the clock faces for comparative of the springs. Like the clock hands, the spring from space displays an advanced position, and because a springs position can be defined in terms of how much energy or force it has expressed, (force over distance) the comparative of the two clocks can accurately be described as being "force Dilated". Clocks dont measure time dilation, they measure a definable quantity that is "force dilation".

When you associate relativities effects with a variable kinetic energy value, then it must be that your referring to a variable value of atomic energy/force. Atomic energy/force corresponding to mass, let us presume a variable Baryon mass.

Scaling atomic kinetic energy, scaling mass dependant on gravity's distance square law. It can be said that Baryon mass scales dependent on square law proximity to matter. "proximity to matter Edwin!". That includes proximity of stars to each other within spiral galaxies.

If you scale atomic force/mass dependent on square of average distance between stars in spiral galaxies, it readjusts the mass distribution within galaxies. Placing it as a precise antidote to deviation from General Relativities prediction. Because, the average distance between stars increases by square of distance from a galaxies centre. This proscribes an increase in baryon mass proportionate to square of distance from galaxy centre. As an ideal geometric solution.

Energy is indeed as you say, a primary consideration of relativity. Not time. This translates to consideration of Atomic energy/mass. Your hypothesis predicts anomalous galaxy rotations.

MOND attempts to adjust gravities square law, and although it comes tantalizingly close, it doesn't quite achieve it. This is because atomic force/mass is the variable instead of gravities square law.

My essay isn't up yet, so hopefully it will be qualified soon. It details these considerations in greater detail. I'd love for you to take a look if you will please?

Steve

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Edwin

I could assume computer glitch, or that you have deleted my post?

If you have deleted it, I would have preferred that you tell me why my reasoning's are so poor to have deserved? Is it really such a leap, you speak of time in terms of its relation to a systems energy. To what energy could you possibly refer to other than matters energy? matters energy relates to mass?

If you're relating times effect to matters energy, then surely that includes the dilation effects? Wouldn't that be the point?

It is force/energy that drives a clocks mechanism. If clock functions dilate in relative gravitational environments, then its force/energy must be considered to have dilated. This can be defined and measured, clock springs being exampled. What is so unreasonable with the statement, clocks measure force/energy, when forces clearly drive clocks? a simple enough question please

Steven

Its a welcome message that you didn't delete it :) thank you. By all means take your time.

I think my first paragraph fairly represents the circumstance of, "gravitational fields acting as ether, serve as preferred reference frame.

I think this is a fair assessment. Dilation is an effect experienced by clocks in relative gravitational environments. Dilation effects extend to the clock springs, which can be defined in terms of force expression, or potential for force expression. or you could substitute term of force, for term of energy. A comparative of two clock springs in terms of their energy potential and expression, from different gravitational environments, can fairly be termed "force dilation". A definable measure, I do think?

Does this observation extend to fundamental considerations of atomic energy dilation and therefore to consideration of mass dilation? I haven't presented this argument to you yet, but I have one. I read your essay and it seamed to me you were referring to matters energy in relation to times process, which dilates dependent on square law. unless you were relating to some other limited context?

Then I point out that if you assume atomic force/mass dilates dependent on gravity's square law proximity to matter. Then that implicates proximity of stars to one another in galaxies. The test would be, is there a correlation between star densities and galaxy rotation velocities which deviate from GR predictions? If you pursue this question, you will discover there is. It fits

I got excited when you related times operation with energy, and as a substitute to GR prescribed fourth dimension. And you seek to remedy the situation of many real worlds, which are an inescapable consequence when "my clock runs slower than your clock, while your clock runs slower than my clock. If force/energy drives the rate of causality instead of times forth dimension, and it is force/energy that dilates rather than time, then no such paradox arises.

Steve

Edwin, I like the idea that there is a tavern where physicists get free beer in exchange for answering the keeper's questions about physics. Even better is that in this tavern people can blurt out complex equations in casual conversation.

However, I am not so sure that Einstein would have conceded the points against him so easily. I suspect that the Tavern Keeper is actually Henri Poincare in disguise. Poincare understood the principles of relativity very well. In fact it was probably his use of the term that inspired Einstein. Yet Poincare preferred a conventionalist approach to space and time. He thought that even if it is not possible to determine absolute time by observation it is still simpler to define one by some arbitrary convention. Both he and Einstein lived at a time when the setting of such conventions was an important need for practical reasons. Poincare also said that if space is non-euclidean it would still make sense to define a Euclidean reference from to work in and translate everything in terms of Euclidean distances in that frame, because it would be simpler.

Yes, you can make the Maxwell equations Galilean invariant. Einstein would have pointed out that according to general relativity the equations are invariant under all coordinate transformation provided you transform the spacetime metric as if it is a field. All theories can be made invariant under any transformation law provided you introduce other fields that transform to compensate, but unless those fields are themselves dynamic they define a fixed background.

Physicists have adopted Einstein's view that it is better to think in terms of relative time and non-Euclidean spacetime, even if you have to fall back on some conventional framework to perform experiments. Since the spacetime metric is the gravitational field which is itself dynamic this turns out to be simpler and more instructive, but simplicity is subjective so is it just a philosophical preference? I think it is up to the point where spacetime breaks down, e.g. at the big bang or a singularity inside a black hole. If the topology of spacetime is not that of the euclidean plane then Poincare's conventionalist point of view fails. He would have understood that but he lived at a time when such ideas were too wild to contemplate.

Thank you anyway for such an entertaining and thought provoking essay. As well as this contribution to the contest you should be commended for your insightful and positive comments on other essays.

Dear Fellow Essayists

This will be my final plea for fair treatment.,

Reliable evidence exists that proves that the surface of the earth was formed millions of years before man and his utterly complex finite informational systems ever appeared on that surface. It logically follows that Nature must have permanently devised the only single physical construct of earth allowable.

All objects, be they solid, liquid, or vaporous have always had a visible surface. This is because the real Universe must consist only of one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am always illuminated mostly by finite non-surface light.

Only the truth can set you free.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Hi Edwin. Sure I'd like a drink. Over there? ... OK, but this better not be a zombie tavern.

Hertz's ideas really sound like the river model of gravity, which is where I ended up in my essay, with the vacuum behaving like a compressible fluid. I have no idea to what extent Hertz's ideas might need to be absorbed into gravitational theory.

I think your expectation of simultaneous time corresponds to time in quantum mechanics, which is classical. Perhaps it is curious that space and time are common to classical and quantum theory, but this allows the underlying quantum ether to be distinguished from what we call the real world. Anyway, I agree because I concluded that the ether operates in classical time, and that relativistic matter is energy transformed out of the ether, so that relativity is a secondary characteristic of the ether.

Cheers,

Colin

I do not think your approach calls my approach into question.

In my own thread I have written the following:

"Regarding the idea of considering relativity in one frame only, this seems to correspond to Bell's "how to teach special relativity" paper, where the main point is also that one gets much better intuitions about his thread between rockets example if one analyses it in a single frame, instead of switching all the time between different frames and confusing oneself in this way."

"My intro to relativity http://ilja-schmelzer.de/papers/LorentzEtherIntro.pdf may be interesting in this context too. I use there the Lorentz transformation, with the speed of sound instead of c, in a single frame to construct a Doppler-shifted solution of the same sound wave equation."

So, you see in the question of using only one frame I agree with you. (On the other hand, I see no point in deriving transformations - if you guess a transformation, it is as good.)

In general, I'm not somebody who likes to praise other people in a scientific discussion. If I start to praise, this should be something exceptional. I write if I see something to criticize. Once, in this case, my criticism is about a quite secondary question, it means I have not seen something more serious to object.

Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman ,

I really enjoyed reading your essay. The fourth dimension of time is something we never understood very well. I have different opinion about time. I showed in my essay. Time is quite different when you see in GR, thermodynamics, and in quantum Mechanics. I would like to know what do you about time; an absolute entity?

I wish you luck.

Best,

Priyanka