An enjoyable read Ernesto...

I agree with all of your premises and the conclusions up to a point. I prefer an interpretation that the universe is maximally mathematical. My sticking point is your statement that the lowest level, Math, does not have emergent properties, and this is a common misconception, but untrue.

I would start by looking at page 8 of Alain Connes "Noncommutative Geometry Year 2000" arXiv:math/0011193, where he makes the curious observation "noncommutative measure spaces evolve with time!" and 'explains' there is a 'god-given' one parameter group of automorphisms (his emphases).

This gets more involved when working with the octonions, for example. So when one ventures into non-commutative and non-associative spaces, one does encounter evolutive and then sequentially evolutive properties unavoidably, and this is precisely a kind of seed for emergence in pure Maths. However; I very much liked your paper.

I especially like the way you mix the layers up, or assert there is no topmost or bottom-most level. And I have just submitted for review a paper entitled "Painting, Baking, and non-associative Algebra" that expands on my comments above, which may interest you. I will have more to say here when there is time.

All the Best,

Jonathan

    Dear Ernesto,

    I enjoyed reading your essay, and I think that, while you modestly declare it "a play in speculation", you make some excellent points.

    > To create a mapping onto reality beyond a simple model would require something else. Not to mention the 'true' nature of reality is up for debate, which is why I take as an assumption in this paper that "reality is mathematics".

    These and other mathematical universe statements you make make sense to me, and I wrote about such things, for example here. You mention Tegmark, I believe that he proposes to take into account only computable mathematical structure, which I think makes his ideas digital philosophy rather than mathematical monistm as it seems. While I think both you and I find more appealing to go beyond this limitation. Which leads to the following.

    > if and only if an example of Gödel's undecidability is found within nature, can we claim that there is something more fundamentally mathematical about reality, than the math simply being a useful tool. This is because a truly undecidable result would only be possible if there existed a true mathematical structure underlying reality. In fact there are a few instances of undecidable results being found within quantum mechanics (Cubitt, Moore).

    I think this is idea that "a truly undecidable result would only be possible if there existed a true mathematical structure underlying reality" deserves more serious consideration. Usually people misuse Gödel's undecidability theorem in the complete opposite sense, which makes no sense. Too many still understand it as being proof of the limits of mathematics, not of the fact that it goes beyond the limits of logically consistent language.

    > in this view, certain fundamental properties would also be high level properties.

    This is another claim with which I agree, and it seems to me that a good example is the micro, quantum level of reality fails to determine the macro level, which makes me think that there's something fundamental at the macro level, although I don't consider it to be extra stuff than the wavefunction, just constraints of it. I wrote about this here sec. |7>, and here, example 10.

    I also liked this one

    > Because certain emergent properties cannot be explained from their constituent parts, from the point of view I am taking in this paper, they must be examples of Gödel truths [...] strong emergence.

    which is something I think too, cf. my longer essay, def. 11. In fact, because "emergent" is sometimes used in completely opposite way by philosophers compared to physicists, I removed it everywhere in that essay and replaced the part about "emergence" in terms of "reducible", so "strongly emergent" became "weakly reducible" :). But the way I understand it is in terms of Gödel undecidability like yours.

    Now, a good question I think may be whether for something to have Gödelian truths, it necessarily has to be a mathematical structure with no other ontology.

    Cheers,

    Cristi

      Hello snp,

      Sorry for the late reply, this has been a busy time for me. Thank you for your kind comments. I like what you said about saying that I am searching for a proof. that is a much better way to phrase that, so thank you.

      I believe it would have applicability to cosmology, though I can't say for certain, at this point its is mostly conjecture/speculation.

      Thank you for telling me of your essay. I will do my best to get to it soon.

      Sincerely,

      Ernesto

      Hi Jonathan,

      Thank you for reading my paper, and for your encouraging comments.

      I don't think I meant to say that Mathematics doesn't have any emergent properties, but maybe my wording could be improved. I honestly hadn't even thought of whether it could be or not. I'll check out the paper you referenced me to, it sounds interesting. I will try to get to your paper as soon as possible.

      Sincerely,

      Ernesto

      Dear Cristi,

      Thank you for your very detailed feedback, i really appreciate it. You've given me a lot to look through. I do think we have a lot in common in the way we think about these ideas.

      I actually found your paper from the mathematical universe essay contest, and having been digesting it slowly. I will do my best to get through all the material you linked me to, though this time has been quite hectic for me.

      Thank you again, and I think you make a great point with your final question: "for something to have Gödelian truths, it necessarily has to be a mathematical structure with no other ontology." Something to definitely give further thought.

      Kind regards,

      Ernesto

      8 days later

      Thank you Ernesto...

      I am getting to offer my rating now. I enjoyed your paper a lot. I thought it was a delight how you changed things up from the ordinary. I think you will appreciate what Connes has to say over time. It took me several readings and much thinking to fully grasp the opening sections, but it is worth checking out. FWIW; Connes also has some thoughts for aspiring mathematicians. One of the things he advises is to read until you are full up, and then recline while musing about what you just read. Works wonders!

      Best,

      Jonathan

      I think you will like my essay Ernesto...

      Like you; I believe in the MUH, and there are a few other common points as well. You bring to mind the story of Jaime Keller, who began by studying Chemistry, then found that to fully understand it he needed to know Physics better, and finally he decided what he really needed to know was Math - and he became an expert in Clifford algebras before his demise.

      Bye for now,

      Jonathan

      I hope some others return to rate you favorably...

      I see only positive remarks and I gave you a good grade, but your essay has not fared so well. Nor has mine, so far. There must be some people who are not courageous enough to criticize, or articulate at stating what they don't like, but want to take others down anyway. That is so sad.

      Regards,

      Jonathan

        Hi Jonathan,

        I was able to read your essay recently. I enjoyed it, but I haven't gotten a chance to comment on your page yet. I haven't gotten to Connes paper yet, but it does sound like I will appreciate it. I like that idea of reflecting on what was recently read.

        Jaime Keller's story does sound a bit similar to mine. I was a Chemistry major before switching to Physics haha.

        I will comment on your paper soon.

        All the best,

        Ernesto

        Yes, I have a feeling some people can be very harsh with their ratings, but I'm not sure why. I read on someone else's essay thread that someone rated their paper a 3/10 and called it one of the best rating they've given. So a lot of it has to do with who see the essay I suppose, whether they are harsh or not, or possibly not participating completely honestly, and giving essays worse ratings than they deserve. I don't see much of a solution to it other than to continue to encourage honest criticism.

        Sincerely,

        Ernesto

        5 days later

        Dear Ernesto Vaca!

        We are happy to inform you that we have rated your work 10 points. We share the initial assumptions made in the article. We like Max Tegmark's idea. But in the world there is something called GENESIS. And there is what is called TIME. Therefore, we believe that the very principles of mathematics need a deeper clarification. For example, Hegel tried to see the genesis in logic. We think it makes sense to look for the genesis in mathematical structures.

        We wish you a successful scientific work!

        Truly yours,

        Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

        Siberian Federal University.

          a month later

          I apologize for the late reply, if you are even still paying attention to my page, but thank you so very much! It is very encouraging. If you come back to this, are you speaking of genesis of our universe? What do you feel needs to be clarified about the principles of mathematics?

          Thank you again,

          Ernesto

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