The Noise of Gravitons

Hi Zeeya,

It's a very well written paper and the mathematics is quite elegant. However, when you say, "he mode can have a finalstate|f〉, which, after interaction with the detector, will generically be different from itsinitial state because the detector masses will typically both absorband emit gravitons(through spontaneous as well as stimulated emission). ",

the part about a mass emitting and absorbing gravitons suggests an understanding of gravitons and how they behave, that should be talked about. I think the way the physics community is looking at gravitons is wrong!

You are treating gravitons as exchange particles that transmit momentum and energy between masses. But gravity is curvature of spacetime! If that is true, then shouldn't gravitons be contributors to spacetime?

Is it possible to treat gravitons as things that contribute to spacetime geometry? Perhaps gravitons are made of spacetime geometry itself...

Forgive me Zeeya. I didn't realize you were a layperson.

Very well. But in all seriousness, I think the physics community is looking at it wrong.

...well at least now two people are interested enough to comment on graviton noise. The LIGO measurements have shown gravity waves from black hole and neutron star mergers, but LIGO also shows gravity wave stochastic noise. Although electromagnetic noise dominates each LIGO location, the gravity waves phase coherence among LIGO locations also shows gravity wave noise.

We are in an ocean of gravity wave noise and that noise tells us a lot about our gravity ocean. Right now, we focus on the gravity wave storms, but there is useful information in the gravity wave noise as well. In fact, continuous spontaneous localization theory argues that gravity noise is responsible for the collapse of wavefunctions.

This seems to be likely true, but Science will likely need to measure gravity waves far away from earth to show this is true. Gravitons are still hypothetical particles, but since photon exchange carries charge force by QED, graviton exchange should therefore carry gravity force.

Hi Steve,

I hope you don't mind if I share an intuitive thought experiment with you about how gravitons actually work.

Gravitons begin as points from the Planck scale

Hi Steve,

I hope you don't mind if I share an intuitive thought experiment with you about how gravitons actually work.

Gravitons begin as points from the Planck scale

The FQXI editor seems to have cut off the rest of it. I"ll try again a little later.

Hi Steve,

I hope you don't mind if I share an intuitive thought experiment with you about how gravitons actually work.

Gravitons begin as points from the Planck scale

Hi Steve,

I hope you don't mind if I share an intuitive thought experiment with you about how gravitons actually work.

Gravitons begin as points from the Planck scale. They expand at the speed of light in all directions such that they obey,

[math]x^2 y^2 z^2 - (ct)^2 = 0[/math]

Which is the equation of a sphere. As these gravitons expand, they are likely to bump into particles. If they do, they can be absorbed into a particle system. The wave function solution to the Schrodinger equation is,... a captured graviton. Since wave functions have operators associated with them for momentum, position and energy, then a captured graviton must have quantum states for position, momentum and energy built into them.

Gravitons that escape particle systems get large very quickly. Within one second, a graviton is already larger than the Earth.

Gravitons larger than t = 10 seconds will overlap to create the spacetime continuum. Since gravitons are made of quantum states,... then the spacetime continuum is really the overlap of a very large number of momentum, position and energy states.

To get a little bit more detailed,... the interior volume of the graviton is filled with quantum states. The surface area of a graviton is a virtual photon unless energized, in which case it would be a real photon.

The potential energy term of the Schrodinger equation acts on the virtual photon surface area of the graviton (the virtual photon) which is itself an electromagnetic field. The result is that the potential energy will deform the shape of the graviton sphere into the wave function solution.

The arrow of time (increasing entropy) postulate gave me the idea that, as you go backwards in time to the first causal event, the entropy will get smaller until it reaches a minimum. By that logic, I think that the first causal event that began the big bang was a single photon of energy E = hf = energy of the big bang. For the tiniest amount of time, the photon energy surrounded a graviton sphere of radius 10^-88 meters. The smallest possible entropy is a single particle inside of a very very small volume.

I am of the opinion that each of the particle quantum fields is made of overlapping gravitons with a size range of ct_1 and ct_2.

I would be happy to explain anything further. Or defend against any criticisms you might have. I hope this intuitive wave of looking at gravitons is easy to understand. It's seems easy as basic geometry to me, with a few definitions thrown in.

A quantum entanglement between two photons would also be... a graviton.

JW

Thank you Steve Agnew. Interesting thoughts. I try to think about chaos and time. Maybe it is chaos and gravitation, because both are about movements.

Regards, Ulla Mattfolk

A remark: This stochastic gravitation fits well with G as nonlocal. And it acts as a rubber that delete information, and hence creates a wave of time, at least contribute to it. So the second law again....

Regards Ulla Mattfolk

The expanding graviton is stochastic by design. They randomly interact. The age range is what determines whether it will contribute to the lepton field, Higgs field or the spacetime continuum.

All those virtual photons that were proven to exist via the Casimir effect, are gravitons.

Curvature of spacetime due to planets, stars, and gravitationally signfiicant bodies are the result of the mass-energy, the stress-energy tensor casting a sort of negative energy "reflection" upon the spacetime continuum, which causes spacetime to warp, and also causes the average of momentum to vary with distance.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1604.00439 here you can see the termal noise as a blue line, actually with a spike near zero... /Ulla

If the mechanism of gravity was a constant stream of gravitons constantly being created from the Planck scale, then there would of course be gravitational noise.

Does anyone else have a theory of how gravitons are related to spacetime geometry?

This paper is a very good paper when we extrapolate the gravitons and the GR and the gravitational waves, but the problem is to consider still only this spacetimes made of photons only , furthermore the gravitational waves are effects on the GR like we know and we have had results due to these BHs colliding and so we have these waves acting on this spacetime and we have ghad results with Ligo . But never the quantum gravitation has been proved to be correlated with these gravitational waves and also that it is different modes for photons . In fact the paper is a good attempt but it considers like strings in fact and onmly photons liuke primordial essence and so they have inserted the noise to find them with the gravitational waves, but it is just photons oscillating, not particles of gravitation. The secret for me is to consider the vaccumm differently , the DE and also this Dark matter like a different non relativistic spacetime superimposed and consider the particles of gravitation correlated with this cold dark matter and we link with the anti matter. That needs a new partitions and new encodings in our nuclei, the fact to focus on this GR and gravitational waves is not the secret, it is not remormalisable and quantisable in this line of reasoning. This paper permits to find the modes of gravitational waves but has nothing to dfo with the quantum gravitation for me. So they have tried to unify the QM and the GR with these gravitational waves in changing the modes of photons giving gravitons, but that does not quantify the quantum gravitation unfortunally, that gives just noises for the modes of phtons oscillating differently due to gravitational waves, Wilczek is very relevant and I respect his idea but it is not quantised and not the good road for me. But it is just my opinion. The noise of gravitational waves is nnot the noise of particles of gravitation, it is different.

That implies this prison that I told you due to our GR and the D branes of strings theorists. They consider these gravitons and wave lenghts different but that does not explain the vector of this quantum gravitational force. The fact for example to take a string closed giving a circle and you can give modes and vibrations giving the properties of spin, charhes or others , that does not solve the problem because the modes are not the main essence giving the topologies, geometries, properties , and this GR is not the only one piece of puzzle, so that has nothing to do with these gravitational waves wich are simply modes of oscillations of photons of this spacetime giving a different interpretation of the gravitation at high velocities and we forget to consider the pure newtonian mechanics. That is why we need to superimpose a deeper logic to this standard model than just these modes, these photons and this GR. The quantum bgravitation is a different force simply than this electromagntism , that is why we cannot try to cobniser the vectors of gravitation for this GR and so we cannot try to utilise the same reasoning to quantify it at this quantum scale, that is whty we cannot renormalise it with the electromagntism reasoning and the modes and the photons and the strings, hope I am clear. We need a balance deeper than these different modes and we can respect the newtoniam mechanics if we consider different distances because the vacuum and the main codes more other particles encoded than these photons solve the problem of renormalisation. The rela problem I insist is to consider this GR like the only one piece ond these modes and so they try to unify the QM and the GR in playing with the Dbrames and photons but that does not converge, because it lacks simply somthing to superimpose. The GR is true for the photonic space time and is a wonderful tool but is not the only one truth of our universe , we cannot explain our unknowns with just this , the problem is philosophical, the majority off thinkers have considered this BB and so that we have just photons and after different modes and after they explain the geonetries , topologies, but it is reductor, the photons are just a fuel permitting the electromagntism, the fact to observe due to light and the heat and thermodynamics, but why are we sure that they are the omly one thing created at this hypotherical BB, the question is there, why we consider the photons and oscillations only instead to try to go deeper in trying to superimpose deeper logics ??? It is even the same with the broken symmetry at this plancl scale with Lorentz, it is there that they try to unify also this GR and this QM , but that does not converge even with the best mathematical tools, that proves that there is a big problem in fact and that it lacks something, it is evident than it is not a question of modes of photons , it is a question of a deeper graviotatiponal logic.

well, let s go farer now, we need to explain this DM, this DE, this antimatter and this quantum gravitation and we must unify for this the GR and the QM. So all has a logic of unification and if we don t consider these unknowns, so we cannot, first of all we must superimpose a space time made of cold dark matter at my humble opinion to this GR and we must consider the vacuum like a coded energy , tha main code in fact , it is this DE. that permits furthermore to encircle the evolution abd even the consciousness evolving but it is an other story. Now the dark matter ans the antimatter are correlated , they permit to balance our GR and our actual stadard model and explain also with this DM encoded in nuclei the quantum gravitation . Why ? because we need a balance for our standard model like a gravitation cold balancing this heat and electromagntism and also a link with the antimatter permiiting the same , so that becomes simple but complex in details when we consider the propertices of particles due to these 3 main system merging creating these topologies, geonetries, amtters and peoperties like the charges,spin.....that implies a depper intepretation than this BB with this cold dark matter and this antimatter, we don t need to consider an antiverse but just a matter cold balancing , it balances evenm at all scales , quant or cosmological. That explain even the ahinilations of particles due to these two opposite logic , furthermore this quantum gravitation is reached because we have a deeper gravitational logic due to this coded vaccuum this DE and the cold DM encoded , see that the actual standard model is simply an emergent system but that the main codes are farer and so we can respect the newtoniam mechanics and unify the GR and this QM because the GR is simply noty the only one spacetime,it is just a photonic observable spacetime interpretating the gravitation like a curvature of our space time. It is there the error of thinkers, they have tried to unify this GR and this QM in this reasoning without respecting the newtonian mechanics. So they cannot renormalise it simply. It is evident that we must unify all and not only the GR and this QM. See that the baryogenesis also is solved in this line of reasoning. The importance also is to consider that all is made of particles in a kind of superfluid , my 3D coded spheres respect this reasoning and all is in contact and so the waves particles duality and the fields are not a proble, that can converge and there is even a conjecture with the Mtheory and superstrings. But the main origin is particles and not fields in my model.So that converges with the Hylogeneisis , the baryonic matter primoridal and the non baryonic matter primoridal and this energy also primoridal the DE, the main codes, paradoxally made of particles coded also , my equation becomes relevant in all humility with this matter cold encoded , E=m(c^2+Xl^2) more ven mayve an other to add for this vacuum, I search a road.