The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
What is seen is the relative, partial observer generated observation product made using inp'ight'. An 'Image' reality rather than a material reeality made of atoms andsiona containinjg fermion particles. That observer genderated semblance has virtual time dimension. It is virtual becauae itr does not exist in the external reality, what does exist external to the observer is raw unoprocessed potential sensoery data, including photon particles released by matter, by reflection or by emission.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
STUFF HAPPENS. Matter does not exist alone in the material universe. Atoms and ions containIng a configuration of fermion particles also contain a lot of energy bound up with them, released when the atom is split by an atomic reaction. Graviy is aforce that brings bodsies of matter together,important for astronomy. There are forces that bring opposite charges together. Some chemistry and bilolgy occurs because otrf this.CHEMISTRY; ( Principles of states of matter, the different elements and their behavciour, types of reaction and bonding are important) BIOLOTGY; ( Principles of osmosis and capiulary action , surface area to volumre ratio, enzymes and genetics are also important) Alike electostaticcharges repel, magnetism.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward Part 1,Gravity ,volcanisn, plate techtonics
Thinking about nature and our planet, an accumulation of matter, probably helped by gravity, orbiting a star called Sol.
Gravity -between moon and Earth causes tides, Falling down due to gravity from higher ground to sea level= flow of rivers, waterfalls_ RIvers. and glacirers, errosion leaing to gulltys and canyons and caves. Stalactites and stalacnites from dripping mineral rich water usually in a cave,
Water cycle- Sol =heat during day when facing= ground heated leading to evaporation, cold in sky and cold at night when facing away from Sol= condensation -= rain
Cold night, stomata open ( closed prevents evaporation) morning sun on plants leads to evaporation from leaves .Have not yet closed stomata, so dew
volcanism, plate tectonics. Formation of land nasses. earthquakes due to movemenrt of land masses relative to each other. heating of large rock, melting with high pressure ,shooting out of ground =vocano.
TSUNAMI waves due to disturbance of sea during earthquake on land near coast or undersea.

Georgina Woodward

Attractive forces alone;
Coming together of atoms of different elements, makes a mixture or a compound,which may have different properties from thje elements alone. Coming togther of atoms of the same element gives a material. Coming together of matter gives bodies of matter or objects.
Gravity, one of the attractie forces leads to bodies of matter having potential energy or potentil to fall down the ground. It is why rivers flow.,waterfalls water ,water flowing makes erossion happen which may result in gulleys ,canyons ,or caves . The opposite can also occur which is depositrion. It may be where current of water flow slows due to slope or widening of watercourse ,chasnging the shape of the river. Stalactites and stalacmites are formed by deposition.
Geothermal energy gives us volcanism and hot pools and geysers ; because the mantle is molten there is such a thing as plate techtonics and the plates moving against each other causes natural earthquakes. and consequently tsunamis
Water cycle , largly regulated by heating and cooling because of differences in absorbtion of radiation from Sol, as the planet Earth rotates.
Wind energy related to rotation of the planet ,afffecting meteortoligy and ocean currents, Patterns in sands ,build up of sand dunes.
Light energy mostly from Sol. A broad spectrum including small band of visible light. Also accociasted with a longer and longer wavelength during its ransmission, infrared, microwave and radio ,and assoiciated with a shorter and shorter wavelength ultraviolet ,xray and gamma ray wavelengths.
stored chemical energy on the surface, underground and under sea.
wood, coal, oil, natural gas methane/ biogas.

Lorraine Ford

In the beginning, algorithmic/ logical operators created the component parts of the mathematical system (i.e. the categories, relationships between the categories, and the numbers that apply to the categories), and jump-started the component parts into a viable, moving system by continually assigning new numbers to the categories.

We would describe these algorithmic/ logical operators as “consciousness” and “creativity”, and they are a necessary part of a viable, moving, real-world system. (The real-world system shouldn’t be confused with man-made symbolic computer systems, where voltages, circuits and transistors are used to symbolically represent both the logical and the mathematical aspects of a viable, moving system.)

This “consciousness/knowledge” and “creativity/ free will” are the only aspects of the world that can’t be explained when the question is asked by Robert Lawrence Kuhn (see original post by the Forum Moderator): "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?".

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

There are many and various claims about the origins of the current real-world system, and most seem to claim that mathematical systems and/or particles and/or strings etc. can simply exist, with no backstory.

But the question, asked by FQxI member Robert Lawrence Kuhn: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?", is all about the backstory.

Any “final analysis”, any backstory, will inevitably identify the necessity for foundational aspects of the world describable as “consciousness” and “creativity”.

Furthermore, once created, the operation of a viable, moving, real-world system also requires the existence of algorithmic/ logical aspects of the world, describable as “consciousness/ knowledge” and “creativity/ free will”.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford
Via our senses, human beings are aware of the environment exrernal to their body. This semblance of the source reality shows differentiation into many different elements, and chemical compounds and mixtures, materials and objects ,bodies of matter ,inanimate and living. This suggests that there cannot be nothing at all, as nothing cannot be differentiated.
A fraction of nothing at all, is still nothing ,not something in particular, different from the rest..
The 'real world system' (Lorraine's term), material nature develops and differentiates, over time obeying the rules of classical mechanics and following Newton's Laws of motion. Addditional aprior creativity and consciousness seems superfluous.

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
Georgina,

One of the topics in this discussion is supposed to be "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?". I notice that you have failed to address this issue. However, this issue is relevant to the issue of the subsequent nature of the world, and one can't correctly analyse the nature of the world without providing a satisfactory answer to Robert Lawrence Kuhn's question.

Also, you have not defined what you think a "system" is, i.e. you have not defined what are the basic elements/ requirements for a viable moving system. Before you start making claims or comments about this or that, it would be nice if you could first demonstrate that you even understand what a system is.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford
HaveI I failed to address the questIon or have you not read my latest rely, which builds on my pevious replies?

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
SYSTEM noun, from Google search.

a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole. (I tend more towards meaning 1.)
"2. a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method. (Wheras I suspect you prefer meaning 2.)

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
I just knew that you would trot out a dictionary definition of “system”, which only goes to prove my point that you haven’t got a clue about what a system is.

I think that in maybe 90% of the comments I have made, I have talked about the difference between a set of equations and a system. A set of equations with associated numbers can’t represent a viable, moving mathematical system, including the real-world mathematical system. This fact has been noted by quite a few prominent physicists. To represent a viable, moving mathematical system, you need to use logical connective symbols to represent the mathematical system’s knowledge of itself, and to represent the mathematical system moving itself in response to that knowledge. These logical connectives represent necessary aspects of a viable, moving real-world mathematical system that can’t be represented by equations, categories and numbers alone.

Similarly, with living systems. The essential aspects of a viable living system are NOT the primitive deterministic physics of a living system acquiring energy from its environment. The essential aspects of a viable living system are exactly the same as the essential aspects of a viable, moving real-world mathematical system. Living matter (and indeed pre-living matter) needs to:

Know/ experience itself and, to a greater or lesser degree, analyse that knowledge/experience (hunger?)
Know/ experience its environment via interactions with its environment, and, to a greater or lesser degree, analyse that knowledge/ experience (danger?)
Be able to move itself in response to the knowledge/ experience of e.g. hunger
Be able to move itself in response to the knowledge/ experience of e.g. danger

The essential aspects of a viable living system are exactly the same as the essential aspects of a viable, moving real-world mathematical system.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford
A river transporting water and dissolved minerals and suspended sediment to sea level from high ground is a good example of the kind of moving system I am taking about. A REAL, EXISTING AND HAPPENING THING.

Rainfall collects forming a river. At high ground the water and carried substances have a lot of potential energy i.e. have a long way to fall, due to gravity which acts on matter. The potential energy is changed to kinetic (movement) energy as the river decends towards sea level.
The existing water, and carried substances, the landscape (including relative differences in altitude, are the system components. The immaterial effect on matter of gravity. The Laws of thermodynamics characterize the happening. The falling water takes the path of least resistance carving out the landscape as it goes. This is refering to something that actually exists so the label 'real World' seems applicable, it is a 'moving system' as movement of water and dissolved minerals is involved.

Georgina Woodward

Strictly speaking the sytem itself ,the river system is not moving from place to place, changing location but the water that is carried by it and water contents is,

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
Georgina,

As I have previously tried to explain to you, you can’t think of the real-world mathematical system in terms of elephants and blind men, termite mounds, aeroplane wings, black cats, socks, and now your latest absurd, mixed-up, analogy: rivers.

You can’t explain or understand the real-world mathematical system, or any system, by looking at the eventual outcomes of the real-world mathematical system. It is the other way around.

Lorraine Ford

Even with their delta symbols, the law of nature relationships (represented as equations) cannot represent what is moving/ driving the real-world system. There are no equations that can represent what is driving a system; the equations can only represent relationships.

It is necessary to use logical connective symbols to represent the “something” that is moving a mathematical system, and also to represent the “something” whereby the mathematical system can know its own categories, relationships and numbers.

Mathematicians play the part of the logical connectives when they do their mathematics. So, obviously, mathematics can’t exist without the essential part that mathematicians play.

And, also obviously, the real-world mathematical system can’t exist without the “something” represented by the logical connective symbols.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford
‘Real World mathematical system’ sounds like a misnomer. The ‘ real World’ used as an expression synonymous with the existing universe It is physical and is tied to the material stuff that realty exists. that we can deduce/infer from the evidence provided by our senses.,combined with scienttific induction.
Physics pertains to the ‘real World’ ,.Mathematics however deals with abstract objects which Wikipedia says may be derived from nature or entirely abstract entities called axioms. A mathematical system is quantitative and obeys the rules of mathematics. Mathematics that is correct according to mathematical rules can be impossible in the ‘real world’. For example some of the sets of infinities introduced by set theory and non Euclidean mathematics where it does not apply because human kind have been wrong about the dimensions of the materialistically existing universe. Mathematics is a human language and tool which finds use in the sciences but is not tied exclusively to the material, existing real World,
Algebra. arithmetic and Euclidean geometry are useful tools for modeling and analysis if used carefully, For the mathematical result to be true the premises and metaphysical background must be correct.
Words, though more prone to ambiguity are useful for qualitative description of the material reality external to the human being experiencing a semblance of it via sensory perception. they are sometimes used creatively to ‘paint a picture,’ that is, give an impression of what is described or an aspect of it. Striving to give understanding of concepts rather than prioritizing accuracy and precision.

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
Georgina,

I guess that you have never even noticed that physicists need to use mathematical symbols (for categories, relationships and numbers) to represent the actually-existing real world? Where have you been all this time?

These mathematical symbols are used to represent the real world, NOT mathematical objects.

But I guess that you would prefer that physicists looked at the world in terms of your little pets: elephants and blind men, termite mounds, aeroplane wings, black cats, and socks?

Lorraine Ford

While the underlying infrastructure of the world can only be represented mathematically, the very first life was already behaving logically.

I.e., the behaviour of the very first life was representable in terms of:

A knowledge aspect (representable as statements using the symbols AND, OR, and IS TRUE), and
A creative aspect (representable as statements using the symbols IF and THEN). I.e., outcomes are creatively decided on the basis of complicated AND-OR-IS TRUE knowledge, rather than determined by simple law-of-nature relationships.

But this logical aspect of the world can’t arise from mathematics.

The necessary structure of computer programs has proved beyond doubt that logic is the necessary, hidden aspect of mathematics. And in the mathematics that represents the underlying infrastructure of the world, logic is hidden, and not explicitly represented by the mathematical symbols.

And it is the other way around: mathematics can only arise from logic, because logic has an inherent creative aspect.

Georgina Woodward

Mathematics is used. I have noticed. its symbols provide a usefuk short cut to unambiguous, precise expression. The same can be described using words. take Maxwell's equqation's as an example. Often they are accompanied by an explanation in words of what they are saying.
Catagories, relationships and quantities can be represented by symbols. The symbolic representation together with mematical opperators, or adhering to conventional notation, the represened is treated as a mathematical object, obeying mathematical rules. i understand that the real thing is not just a mathenical obect, same as a dog animal is not the word 'dog'. 'The Tao that can be written is not the Tao' from the Tao Te Ching, attributed to Lao Tzu.
The blind men and elephant is an ancient parable teaching the difference between relative, subjective, partial experience and knowledge of the Absolute source of all the different individual experiences. Relevant to Kant's philosophy, everyday experence, and physics.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
The ventilation function of a termite mound and the lift of an aeroplane wing are 'real World' examples of emergence happening. Though an understanding of how the word is used in science is helpful in understanding the concept demonstrated by these particular structures.
Black cats and socks analogies are a bit of fun. A black cat ,unseeable in the dark is funny alone, as it can't collapse into a definite state and the person there can't locate it. The use of a cat is not entirely unlike Schrodinger's cat ,which Erwin Schodinger proposed in order to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the proposition of superposition. Socks are used because of Bertlman's socks written by ; J. Bell. BERTLMANN'S SOCKS AND THE NATURE OF REALITY. Journal de Physique Collo- ques, 1981, 42 (C2), pp.C2-41-C2-62. The joke in both is associated with the history of QM development, a knowledge of the basics of this is assumed.
The river provides a real World example of a moving system that exisrs. it is not creativity ,free will or consciosnesss that makes the river flow.

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
Georgina,

Forget about the bullshit philosophy, and the pathetic jokes. YOU are the one making ridiculous claims about the world, e.g. your "Image Reality" that you claim to exist. YOU are the climate-science denier who is looking forward to the lush greenery that you seem to think is coming. And YOU and your family have self-published several books in which you, a non-physicist, claim to solve the difficult issues of physics.

The world can't be understood or represented in terms of your little pets: elephants and blind men, termite mounds, aeroplane wings, black cats, socks, or rivers. One can't draw conclusions about the world, or make claims about the world, if you see the world in terms of your little pets: elephants and blind men, termite mounds, aeroplane wings, black cats, socks, or rivers.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
The River provides a real World example of a moving system that exists. it is not creativity, free will or consciosnesss that makes the river flow, but the effect of gravity combined with the slope of the landscape from high ground to sea level.

« Previous Page Next Page »