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Georgina Woodward
SPELLING CORRECTION
I don't really understand what you are saying about time Both animate and inanimate matter exist together. The living thing can prolong it's existence,
The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn
There seems to be an assumption that learned experts, of one sort or another, are required to explain to conscious people what it is like to be conscious.
The conscious people themselves don’t feel confident to say what it is like to be conscious, and they look to experts, and the experts’ books and videos, to define consciousness for them.
In particular, the conscious people don’t feel confident to say that their consciousness has a useful function.
Are there any conscious people out there willing to risk saying that their consciousness is necessary and useful, i.e. that consciousness just might have a very necessary and very useful function in the world?
No one is willing to risk it. No one is willing to risk saying that consciousness is necessary and useful.
So, you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that consciousness has a very necessary and useful function in the world. Georgina, Steve and Ulla can find no use for consciousness. Georgina, Steve and Ulla seem to think that consciousness is not necessary. IF Georgina, Steve and Ulla found a use for consciousness, then they would probably be able to say what that use is. IF Georgina, Steve and Ulla thought that consciousness had a necessary function in the world, then they would probably be able to say what that function is. So, you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that their own personal consciousness is necessary and useful. 
And you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that other people's personal consciousnesses are necessary and useful to those people, or saying that other animals' personal consciousnesses are necessary and useful to those animals.
Lorraine Ford
Your post shows that you haven't read the responses you have had . To knowledge gained through the senses I ougfht to add other hazzards besixdes predation.
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Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, lol , there is a function evidently , but we have not still reached it. The conscious mind, the subconscious mind, why and how, that is the question. But there is a function and processings indeed. The sensory inputs, the thoughts, the feelings, the informations...are all important to better understand this consciousness and this intelligence is maybe a kind of transcendant consciousness where we can create and extrapolate. The adaptation and survival to our environments so are relevant at my humble opinion. We have like so a main function for this consciousness divided in several functions and complexities when the cognitive paramaters are considered. I consider philosophically a kind of main function where this pantheism, panpsychism and materialism are considered but we have not reached these parameters. But if the informations, cognitions, sensory inputs, memories, adaptations to environments are important for the reflection of senses, thoughts, feelings.....so the fact to take choices due to the cognitions seem essential and so we encode in the memory and learn and it is key because we improve the intelligence with this learning and memory and so we improve the choices even in evolving. That is why the experiences are important and this evolution. That is why the fact to be able to solve problems is also essential for the adaptation and survival and permit to live and adapt in the environments because we have this creativity .That implies now the communications and even social interactions all this . That implies now relevant extrapolations possible when we consider the universal altruism and the 3 main possible roads, panpsychism,pantheism and materialsim because we align to values and goals and intentions in function of feelings. That is why the experiences are an important key at my humble opinion with all the parameters cited above because it implies the ethical comportments even and moralities , it is a hard problem to explain physically and reach due to the parameters missing but we see the generality. We are different from mindless robots......
Georgina Woodward
Well done! You’ve only made 3 spelling mistakes, this time, in the 2 sentences you wrote.
No Georgina, it’s YOU who hasn’t differentiated consciousness from a zombie mathematical system, and a zombie brain and zombie senses, zombie-processing their zombie mathematical equations, leading to zombie mathematical outcomes/ responses.
You have merely relabelled parts of this zombie processing as “consciousness” or “knowledge”.
You have merely RELABELLED.
You HAVEN’T said that consciousness is a separate aspect of the world that has a necessary and useful function in the real-world system.
Steve Dufourny
Steve, lol.
Obviously, the real-world mathematical system is necessary. But I think that you, like Georgina, have merely RELABELLED zombie mathematical processing as “thoughts”, “feelings”, and “consciousness”. So, you can then say that “thoughts”, “feelings”, and “consciousness” are necessary; but what you really mean is that mathematical processing is necessary.
If you want to say that consciousness is necessary, then consciousness has to be an entirely SEPARATE part, as well as a necessary part, of a viable mathematical system.
I’m saying that consciousness/ knowledge is a separate aspect of the world, and that consciousness/ knowledge is a necessary part of a viable mathematical system.
Lorraine Ford lol , yes indeed there are specific mathematical, physical functions, , we have understood what you told about the consciousness, knowledge wich is a necessary part of mathematical system, now you must develop with concrete mathematics and a speific formalism, show me please I am curious, your ideas are interesting but need details I think, regards
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We have two processing speeeds -re. Daniel kahnmanThey are fast, automatic, unconscious. These are familiar,,repetative, such as motor reflex action that does not even require the brain in some cases.
The other is slow, not automatic but deliberate, conscious The task is unfamiliar, particulrly complex or interesting and fully engages the brain in the thought process.
Slow processing is associated with consciousness ,if it is necessary we do not know though a survival advantage is likely, allowing it to persist across generations.
Georgina Woodward
I mean by my last pagraph, slow processing, and resultant behavioral response to reciept of internal and external sensory information, that is associated with awareness of sensory products, products of hormones acting on the body and awareness of self talk. I am using the term 'consciosness' to refer to all of that. The first part is the process of consciosness. The other part is the experience of consciosness. I am not sure if the 3 kinds of awareness are absolutely necessary for the slow processing and resulting behaviour. Maybe the parts are in nature inseparable.
I think that there are 3 choices for the nature of consciousness, in a mathematical system:
- Relabelling – consciousness is not separate. Consciousness is not separate to the existing zombie mathematical system. So, knowledge, thoughts, and feelings are just a relabelling of small regions of the existing zombie mathematical system.
- Emergence – consciousness is a separate thing that emerges. Consciousness is a separate thing that emerges from the existing zombie mathematical system. I have previously explained why emergence is a failed idea because nothing actually emerges from model mathematical systems.
- Separate part – consciousness is separate. Consciousness is a separate and distinct, but necessary, part of the zombie mathematical system. In which case the “zombie” mathematical system is not actually a zombie mathematical system after all. Knowledge, thoughts, and feelings signify that there exists a separate and distinct, but necessary, consciousness aspect of the world.
What is a mathematical system?
There is an idea that the real-world mathematical system can be described in terms of 3 things: categories (like mass and position), relationships between these categories, and numbers that apply to the categories. This is the zombie mathematical system idea.
But I’m saying that the real-world mathematical system requires at least 4 things to describe it: categories (like mass and position), relationships between these categories, numbers that apply to the categories, AND logical connectives. Consciousness is a logical connective in the mathematical system.
Lorraine Ford
I think where i.e.involving what neural stuctures,,meaning the hardware (wetware) Enabling certain processes and not others is important. A simple ,unconscious, fast ,reflex action may be tuned around at the spine .No need for slower,more complex processing by the brain.Or the lower levels of the brain only may do most of the processing,,eg. cerebellum still relatively fast and unconscious. Or processing that is slow ,deliberate and conscious imay be n eeded, nvolving the most recently evolved brain region that many animal species lack and therefore can't use.
Georgina Woodward
A fast response may help survival and is useful where the problem is simple or familiar. When it is not simple or familiar , the right answer may be more help than a fast incorrect one,.
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Steve Dufourny
So Steve,
Re higher-level consciousness:
I think that knowledge/ consciousness has to start somewhere, and it DOESN’T start at the top, with higher-level knowledge/ consciousness.
Higher-level knowledge/ consciousness has to start at the bottom, i.e. it has to be built out of low-level knowledge/ consciousness of the world. Low-level knowledge/ consciousness is the secure foundation out of which higher-level knowledge/ consciousness can be built.
An example of low-level knowledge/ consciousness would be point-of-view, on-the-spot, direct experience of the light wavelength category, and the current number associated with the light wavelength category. Physicists might represent the category and number with special symbols, but low-level knowledge/ consciousness is the direct experience of that reality.
To represent this low-level knowledge/ consciousness/ experience, one has to use logical connective symbols which in effect say that, at this point in time and space, this particular number applying to this particular category is experienced to be TRUE.
And while low-level knowledge/ consciousness is a secure foundation for higher-level knowledge/ consciousness, higher-level knowledge/ consciousness is clearly a bit of a construction, due to many factors including agency/ free will. I think that one should envisage this construction in terms of logical connective symbols, i.e. NOT in terms of the physical matter involved, but in terms of the logical connections involved.
Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, I see. I consider that consciousness and knowledge are related but different concepts, They are not really the same because the knowledge is mainly about information , the skills, the experience, learning,ediucation, adaptation and so it is a kind of ability to comprehend where we apply these informations to solve problems or take decisions. These knowledges can even be ranked in different types.
On the other side the consciousness is an awareness where we have feelings,thoughts, it is about cognitions , this consciousness too can be ranked and there are different levels. That is linked with the emotions and experiences.
For the knowledge we collect informations, facts, skills and they are stored and even shared and it seems outside the consciounsess and it is there the big difference because the consiousness seems internal and subjective and is mainly about experiences , feelings, perceptions, thoughts.....
This knowledge is acquired with the learnings , observations, or this or that but not the consciousness wich is more intrinsic to us , it is continuous even , we dont learn this consciouness . That said this knowledge can shape this consciousness , that is why they are related , because in encodings informations or knowledges, so we can perceive differently but that does not change the consciousness, that change how we utilise it , this consciousness permits so to reflect the knowledge but this onsciousness does not depend of the fact to possess this knowledge. But they interact in being different concepts.
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Steve Dufourny
Steve well said. I agree that consciousness is inate. Feelings, the effects on us of various hormones produced according to the biological state of the body allow the non verbal body to communicate its wants, needs and satifaction. The brain can communicate with itself either verbally or by sensation simulation,eg. visualisation. Temple Grandin has said that she and autistuic people like her are likely to use visualization instead of self talk, that is also in her opinion how animals think. I can remember, as a child, narrating my intentions , as a rehersal prior to carrying them out .I think I also remember deciding to use self talk rather than visualisation.. Once I could talk efficiently it was quicker and it is less effort that way but remains an option.
Remember half of the brain ,the right side is non verbal It has to use sensation simulation, or involuntry control of body parts to have its concerns noticed by conscious awareness., though understanding is not guaranteed. I once lost a necklace and couln't understand why my left arm kept reaching for my neck as if feeling for something. Only realizing the meaning later on . Sensations, products of the senses, communicate mostlty about external conditions.
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Georgina Woodward
Processing involving lots of different brain regions and invovement of the pre-frontal cortex , the part of the brain thast usually 'handles' executive function, is likelty to be slow, careful and conscious. PERCEPTION, greater awareness of associations, ideas and memories that may be particularly relevant to the situation the organiam finds itself to be in
Georgina,
I have flagged your spam to the Forum Moderator, saying: "This post is an advertisement for G. Parry/ Woodward's son".
Hi Steve,
I don’t think it is useful to split hairs over knowledge and consciousness. Consciousness is such a controversial topic, that to get in the right ballpark is the aim, not to be entirely precise. Get in the right ballpark first, then split hairs.
I’m saying that the ballpark is that consciousness is a separate, necessary aspect of the real-world system; consciousness (and also creativity) is a logical aspect that is necessary for a viable standalone, self-sufficient, mathematical, real-world system. (And in the context of this thread by Robert Kuhn, I’m saying that consciousness and creativity are the basic aspects whose existence can’t be explained.)
Without going off on a tangent about physical matter like particles and atoms, one can be precise about low-level consciousness: low-level consciousness IS knowledge. Low-level consciousness is point-of-view on-the-spot knowledge of the low-level world. Low-level consciousness is awareness/ experience of the mathematics of the world, i.e. awareness/ experience of what physicists would represent as categories, relationships and numbers.
Consciousness (and knowledge) is always based on the world, because the foundation of ALL higher-level consciousness (and knowledge) is the above-described low-level consciousness/ knowledge of the low-level, physics-level, interactions in the senses.
But the content of higher-level consciousness (and knowledge) is clearly a bit of a concoction (that is why we need science). It is only with higher-level consciousness that one can split hairs about all sorts of things, including distinguishing higher-level knowledge from higher-level consciousness, and distinguishing higher-level consciousness from how higher-level consciousness feels.
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Lorraine Ford
Do you find it offensive?. I don't see how it affects you since you have already said you wont look. How does music you won't listen to harm you ? Petty and officiuous behaviour. I have previosly flagged some of your posts as offensive due to their highlty inapproprate language. I COULD HAVE FLAGGED MANY MORE. At least you are consistent in your disagreeableness, So I'm not suprised.