The Myth of Gravity

The entire idea is really not that new. The late Burkhard Heim looked as Entropy as additional dimension (yes in two directions, which positive direction he called Entelechie) he also mathematical formulated. Now with the help of a fifth dimension (Aeonic he called), he was (theoretical) able to show how these informational dimensions (here Hologram) would generate Graviton's among others. Sounds pretty similar, doesn't it?

Lubos,

In your blog entry at the end you state: "Together with the attempts to "unexplain" quantum mechanics by a silly deterministic picture, these flawed "alternative attempts" are likely to stay with us for quite some time."

I am curious to see what do you make out of Adler's attempts in this area:

http://www.sns.ias.edu/%7Eadler/Html/CAMbook.html http://www.sns.ias.edu/~adler/talks/italy2006.pdf

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0510120

Thank you,

Florin

Zephir,

"In AWT gravity is reversible force, dual to pressure of radiation (antigravity). In fact, just this pressure is entropic force, gravity is negentropic."

If radiation is the anti-gravity, would the photon, being a light particle, be the initial collapse of radiation back into mass, while radiation, in its role as anti-gravity/expansion, be a pure wave?

General relativity has second order field equations which are time reversible. However, there are some things which are not reversible, such as the coalescence of two black holes. Further, it is well known that black holes have an entropy S = k*A/L_p L_p = sqrt{Għ/c^3}, which gives the entropy force for any distribution of matter that on the exterior is equivalent to the gravity field of the black hole.

Cheers LC

Dear Lawrence,

It seems that you and Lubos are both making good points. Lubos' points (such as gravity being a conservative force) are more relevant to 'everyday' gravity, whereas your points (such as the entropy of a black hole being proportional to its event horizon) are more relevant to 'extreme' gravity.

Zephir

energy of matter and energy of quantum space that you call ether have a tendency to be distributed in a homogeneous way in accordance with second low of thermodynamics. More mass in a given volume of space less space is dense. Material objects have a tendency to move constantly into direction of lover density of space means into direction of higher curvature. This is "gravitational motion". There is no gravitational force existing between material objects. GW do not exist. Gravity is result of "distortion" of quantum structure of space caused by the presence of matter.

yours Amrit

Lawrence/Ray,

Lubos is right.

It is exactly the case that interference patterns between observers are _not_ conserved that is explained by eqn. 5 of my "time barrier" paper that we discussed earlier.

This tiny amount of lost information is significant only when the forces of gravitation are summed over the entire universe.

Lubos is also right about the return to determinism. A model that allows reversible and chaotic time flows in 4 dimensions, and demands dissipative action in d > 4, restores classical determinism in an extra dimension theory. Every increase in order in d =< 4 is at the expense of increased disorder in d >= 4.

The price we pay for this model is imaginary time, introducing complex analysis to classical physics.

Tom

1) interference patterns between observers were never observed in connection to gravity - such "argument" is irrelevant here

2) a model, which allows reversible and chaotic time is just feature of such theory, which demonstrates connection to quantum mechanics, where such time is common

3) near event horizon the gravity becomes both nonconservative (dispersive) force (compare the multiple event horizons in Kerr's metric), both pretty reversible, because it's ballanced by pressure of radiation there

AMRIT: in AWT Aether is completelly random stuff (a sort of clouds or Perlin noise) and it has tendency to virtually anything - it's causual boundary of our knowledge. There is no entropic/negentropic flow preffered at global scale. Insintric observer of it would always see one half of Universe expanding by pressure of radiation, the second one (above CMB scale) would collapse by gravity instead. In AWT GW exists, but in higher dimension because they're superluminal, so they manifest like CMB noise in our 3D space-time. And so on...

Zephir

at the Planxck scale information and energy transfer are immediate. Quantum space is a direct information and energy medium by EPR, gravity and other immediate phenomena.

yours amrit

I don't think it mentioned in the article, that if gravity is entropic, it would fit that both only work in one direction. (Gravity is always attractive, entropy is always increasing.) Without understanding any of the finer points, it seems that this theory has the advantage of being elegant.

/* Asymmetry between gravitating bodies is what led Einstein to his failed "Relativistic theory of the asymmetric field." Lubos's application of the equivalence principle necessarily assumes that field properties of massless particles are constant; i.e., that there is nothing physical going on between gravity and light...*/

Sorry, but my syntactic parser still didn't catch any causual reference of interference patterns to entropic model of gravity. You just added another phrases like the "equivalence principle", "constant properties of massless particles", "asymmetry between gravitating bodies".

So far I'm forced to consider every sentence of yours as an tautology, separated from other sentences. I still don't see any causual relation in the line "interference patterns" -- "asymmetric field" -- "equivalence principle" -- "entropic model of gravity". Could you argument more coherently for me, i.e. at least to use pair of these concept in one sentence by using of implication clause (IF-THEN) - if nothing else.

You know, it's easy to say, someone is too stupid to understand some logics, so we should define some intersubjectivelly acceptable criterions of existence of such logics. If you prove, such logics exist in your sentences, then it's just me, who didn't understand it - but not before.

You're perfectly right - this is because I've said, I can see paradox in the fact, entropy increases from the beginning of Universe due the expansion of Universe, which contradicts the gravity, which is attractive force, so it leads into collapse. You simply cannot have entropic process, which leads to spontaneous condensation of matter - such process would be always negentropic, instead.

Does it mean, entropic interpretation of gravity is wrong from AWT perspective? Not quite, if we consider vacuum as an interior of dense collapsar, which is condensing by its own gravity. From this moment the entropic expansion of Universe changes into negentropic process, which could be described by gravity.

But such negentropic condensation must be always followed by evaporation of matter into radiation - which is the true entropic process here. The space-time couldn't expand, if the collapsar forming our Universe wouldn't collapse, which is impossible, if it wouldn't a white hole, evaporating its matter to outside.

If we consider this entropic process, then the gravity becomes reversible, because the gravity near collapsar becomes ballanced by pressure of radiation. In accordance with this we can consider such collapsar as an undulating blob or giant quantum wave packet, which is in dynamic equillibrium of negentropic gravity and pressure of entropic radiation.

On the black hole model of Universe the holographic principle is based, but we can see, Verlinde's model leads logically to collapsar model or white model instead, thus removing the problem with reversibility of gravity. After all, one of features of quantum gravity is just to make gravity as reversible, as most of common quantum phenomena.

Remember that statistical mechanics is based on time reversible mechanics, such as Boltzmann statistical thermodynamics is based on Newtonian mechanics. Newtonian mechanics is time reversal since F = ma for a = d^2r/dt^2 remains the same for t  -t. Statistical mechanics is based on adiabatic variations, which in a quantum mechanical setting means that energy levels and states are not destroyed. For quantum field theory and further with stringy black holes there are regularization procedure put in place so that an accounting of these states is possible. The entropy of a black hole is an adiabatic invariant and so the quantum states which compose the entropy S = -k*Σ_{mn}ρ_{mn}log(ρ_{mn}) are preserved. So an accounting of the degrees of freedom for a system is correctly performed. So on a fine grained level there is no loss of information. On that level Lubos is right, but there is still entropy associated with gravity or the area of black holes. Lubos is citing situations where we have a fine grained accounting of states invariant under adiabatic variations.

Where things get sticky is with the large scale and black holes. An exterior observer can't readily observe the quantum states which compose a black hole, and certainly can't enter the BH interior and bring back a report. So in effect there is a coarse graining which occurs here. Now suppose you have a spherically symmetric distribution of matter that has a black spherical "cloak" around it. This cloak is a sort of Gaussian surface we imagine that has been painted black. Birkhoff's theorem tells us the gravity field of this distribution is that of a Schwarzschild black hole, and we conclude that the entropy of states inside this black Gaussian surface is given by the Bekenstein entropy S = k*A/4L_p and A = 4π(GM/c^2)^2. Now if we peel off the black surface and look inside this has no bearing on the physics of gravity, even if we can make now an accounting of matter-states in the spherical distribution --- say it is some elliptical galaxy. This means from the perspective of gravity the entropy is the same --- which is the nature of the entropy force of gravity. Gravity is "blind" or coarse grained with respect to the particular distributions of matter-fields, which can be a star or the strings tied to the stretched horizon of a black hole.

So the area theorem of black holes dS/dt ~ dA/dt >= 0 in classical gravity or general relativity still tells us that on this coarse grained setting there is a thermodynamics to gravity. So in a curious way we can have our cake and eat it too. We have a field theory which is causal and preserves information, but which on a large scale, coarse graining or equivalently a classical treatment of black holes obeys the laws of thermodynamics and dS/dt >= 0.

Cheers LC

I'd compare Verlinde's model to epicycle model, which is incomprehensible, but formally (at numeric level) works well, although it's describing dual model (heliocentric model) in fact. So if we ignore the fact, gravity has an opposite sign regarding to entropy, we can consider Verlinde's model as it is.

But the understanding of celestial mechanics is on the dual side - in the dense aether model of vacuum itself. If we consider Universe as a interior of black hole, we are forced to consider vacuum as a very dense gas, filled by foamy density fluctuations of hyperbolic geometry simmilar to foam (you can mix watter and sugar solution to imagine it). These fluctuations manifests itself like CMB noise in vacuum. The light would spread through such foam in two dual ways, thus creating an illusion of expanding space-time above CMB wavelength scale, whereas space-time bellow CMB wavelength scale would collapse instead.

In accordance with this geometry, the noise of CMB fluctuations is gradually evaporating all objects smaller then the CMB wavelength, whereas all larger objects are condensing under omnidirectional pressure of this "ultramundane flux" in accordance to ancient Le-Sage theory. This is why every action of gravity force is followed by glowing, i.e. by radiation.

And this is what the entropic model of gravity is really about at intuitive, physical level.

You're right. It's just you who didn't understand. The points Motl raised are well known physics.

Tom

Zephir, The heat capacity of spacetime is negative. For this reason entropy increases with lower temperature and it accompanies collapse.

Equilibrium is not possible either. A black hole sitting in a background with a certain temperature and which emits Hawking radiation at the same temperature is not at eqilibirum. This is contrary to our standard expectations. The reason is that if the black hole emits a photon it get smaller and the entropy S = A/4L_p decreases. However, the temperature also increases, meaning the black hole can emit more photons. So the black hole emits more photons, gets hotter and ... . Conversely if the black hole absorbs a photon from the environment it gets colder, higher entropy and has a higher probability of absorbing more photons.

Cheers LC

I still don't see any connections of gravity to some interference. I'm particularly interested about it in connection with red shift quantization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift_quantization

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.4885v3.pdf

/* entropy increases with lower temperature and it accompanies collapse ..*/

At the case of ideal gas such dependence is exactly opposite.

we need fun ....and that is going to begin.....Mr London , I need helps....Mr Landau thanks to be near me also and Mr Feynman of course, they need a curse of thermodynamics aznd sphericality sciences ahahah

How can we do for explaining to them with my bad english, bad english but me it's true sciences.

Let's begin with phonons and rotons.....and my spherons of course .Oh my God they need curses of thermo.

ROTATING SPHERES MY FRIENDS AND THERMODYNAMICS KINETICS

THE ROTATIONS OF THE SPHERES EXPLAIN ALL ........THE SOUND AND THE ROTATIONS YOU WANT A CURSE OR WHAT .