Lawrence,

As you are aware, I believe that if particle properties do exist, and if the 'twins' are treated differently, then the properties may change differently en route. If this is the case then violation of Bell's inequality doesn't have any meaning as to non-locality or non-reality. But I'm not trying to argue that here with you, simply to state my case.

On the other hand, I would like to ask your opinion on the following. Noetherian 'theory' has for a century or so identified conservation with symmetry. I believe that is backward. I believe that conservation implies symmetry, not symmetry implies conservation. Do you believe that every symmetry implies a conservation law?

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Logically in theoretical analysis we have symmetries imply conservation laws. This is just how the theorem is provem. From an empirical perspective the observation of a conservation law supports the existence of a symmetry. In that case you do not have a proof, as is the case with all science.

I am not sure what you are trying to say about Bell inequalities.

Cheers LC

  • [deleted]

Hi Ed,

You asked "Do you believe that every symmetry implies a conservation law?"

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

I believe that every new symmetry implies new fundamental particles and a new conservation law.

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

  • [deleted]

In all honesty, do you think time travel is possible dear Lawrence?

I don't need points of vue but a simple answer.

Cheers Steve

    I do not think classical closed time loops are possible. So I don't think time travel per se is possible. In quantum gravity I think correlation between pre and post selected states have an ambiguity in time ordering. This is a subtle issue with what an event in spacetime means with holography. However, this does not translate into any ability to time travel.

    Cheers LC

    A symmetry in QFT or strings implies a root-weight structure which are eigenvalues for particle states. The particle states are constants of the motion for the Hamiltonian of the system. The Hamiltonian is then the Cartan center of the algebraic generator of the symmetry. The Cartan center in adjoint rep consists of matrices which commute with the rest of the algebra.

    Cheers LC

    Lawrence,

    I was going to reply to your comment that: "I am not sure what you are trying to say about Bell inequalities."

    But I got sidetracked on Joy Christian's papers, and now I have abandoned my argument as irrelevant.

    You also state: "Since the GHZ state gives the violations of Bell inequalities with a single measurement it is not clear to me that the discrete aspects of nature have some higher reality than the continuous part."

    Have you had a chance to study Joy's papers here? I would be very interested in your comments. I understand her logic and believe she is correct, but I cannot check all of her math. I plan to look at her other papers, but the two she links to are quite impressive, and, if true, will turn physics on its head. I am heavily biased in favor of her because my theory is local-realistic.

    Looking forward to your comments.

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Edwin,

    I looked at Joy Christian's paper. It looks dense. It appears that she is arguing the Hopf fibration across the 7 sphere is responsible for the Bell inequality violation with the GHZ state.

    I think honestly I will wait for others to comment on this. My time is a bit limited. Another reason is that people who raise up objections to quantum non-locality have a consistent record of being wrong. In fact Joy Christian proposed a reason for the illusion of nonlocality back in 2006 and that was torn down. I frankly suspect something similar will happen here. I also suspect that if she is building up nonlocality from a geometry, then if there is no physics to the internal structure that can be measured this then all amounts to a sort of geometric quantization. In effect it just arrives at nonlocality by other means and then defines nonlocality as an "illusion."

    Cheers LC

      Lawrence,

      First, I've discovered that Joy is a man.

      Second, I don't believe he is arguing that "the Hopf fibration across the 7 sphere is responsible for the Bell inequality violation with the GHZ state." What I believe he is saying is that Bell's mistake was in thinking that "correlations between the points of a real line have anything to do with the correlations between elements of reality", and it is "topologically impossible for any Bell type map to constitute a manifold of all possible measurement results."

      This, as I understand it, is incompatible with the basic completeness criterion of EPR that "every element of physical reality must have a counterpart in the physical theory."

      But "correlation between the EPR elements or reality are correlation between the respective points of two 2-spheres" and has "nothing whatsoever to do with the correlations between the points of two 0-spheres as Bell unjustifiably assumes." Bell's incomplete description of physical reality doesn't count all possible measurement results.

      The significant result is this: Bell incorrectly found the value 2 while QM found 2*sqrt(2) and experiments show that Bell's value is violated but the QM value is never violated. What Joy Christian finds **in every case** is the value 2*sqrt(2) as the appropriate measure. Since all measurements always fall within this value, the correct inequality IS NEVER VIOLATED.

      If he is correct, then all non-local, non-real, entanglement arguments [ie, all 'spooky' and 'weird' stuff] were based on Bell's incorrect value!

      Of course these 'spooky' and 'weird' arguments have been going on for decades, they have subtly and not-so-subtly affected the minds of most physicists, even to the point that someone as bright as Florin remarked to you about "has the smell of local realism". Fortunately, Florin has now begun to study Joy's work and seems to have an open mind.

      My interest, as I said, is so strong because my theory is based on local realism. You are correct that other challenges have failed, so we'll see.

      I believe you are incorrect to think that Joy has arrived at non-locallity by other means. What he has done is demolished non-locallity. It may take some time for you and others to grasp this notion, but I believe that's what will be required. Of course I may be wrong.

      I'm glad Florin has committed to studying this issue, as I believe it is the most important issue facing physics today.

      Thanks for playing,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      I had a funny feeling Joy was a man, but ... .

      My sense is this. I am pretty sure there is a fly in the ointment somewhere with this. I have a hard time thinking that quantum nonlocality is wrong. Of course maybe Joy has found a loose thread in the quantum edifice and has started to pull at it so it might unravel. My immediate suspicion is that just as his last 2007 attempt to overthrow nonlocality failed to make the grade the same will happen here. If I have the time to dig into this paper I will do so, but it is pretty dense and clearly requires a bit of time to digest. I am currently reading papers on the latest proof of a modular function on the partition of the integers. This is the latest hot breakthrough in mathematics (number theory) and this clearly has implications for the statistics of string modes which compose black holes. So right now that takes a higher precedence. Maybe Florin has more time to work through this.

      My bet is this will not fly.

      Cheers LC

      • [deleted]

      Thank you dear Lawrence,

      Best

      Steve

      6 days later
      • [deleted]

      Hi Lawrence,

      It's taken me a while, because as usual you send me back to the books and I haven't had much opportunity to catch up. In particular, I want to read Goyal's papers.

      Also as usual, though, you frame your questions in precise mathematical terms, which I appreciate. Always a "10," in my estimation.

      I'm reticent to get into a technical exchange that I can't finish, though from our previous dialogue I expect we are still in accord over which mathematics to start with ... algebraic topology in the complex Hilbert space, commutative structures and analytic continuation. As you say, " ... the discrete binary aspect of the universe is equivalent to the continuous structure of the universe" (in a continuous exchange of curves for discrete points).

      Best wishes in the contest.

      Tom

        There are further or deeper structures involved here as I have recently found. The paper by Phillip Gibbs complements my paper. He illustrates how there are elliptic curve realizations with the hyperdeterminant for n-partite entanglements, which have a correspondence with black hole types. I have found that a generating function for strings on black holes has a combinatorial structure which is one exact and secondly has elliptic curve structure. This is by pursuing the problem from a completely different perspective. This also seems to lead to zeta functions through modular structures. The generating function is a modular form of a type with a group action given by the Calabi-Yau form. The application of a particular type of operator on this generating function defines a non-holonomic form which is an integer partition of states on a black hole.

        Cheers LC

        Dear Lawrence,

        I am of course impressed by your knowledge of physics theory and mathematics. I would not like you to think my question disrespectful of that. I will admit I have not downloaded your essay as I doubt very much that as a non specialist I could even begin to understand it. I am quite familiar with your style of communication of your own ideas from FQXi blog threads. My question to you is why do -you- consider your interpretation of the competition question, answered with discussion of moduli space for black hole types and $Ads-7$ space-time, to be foundational?

        Kind regards, Georgina

          If you read my paper you should also read Phillip Gibbs' paper. Our papers complement each other in some ways. Another interesting source to read is

          On the Black-Hole/Qubit Correspondence

          L. Borsten, M. J. Duff, A. Marrani and W. Rubens

          http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.3559

          which illustrates how n-partite entanglements are equivalent to black hole types. What I have done is to look at the equivalency with quantum entanglements and AdS spacetimes. There are discrete group realizations which enter into the problem.

          I have worked further to characterize this discrete system. It is related to something called the Calabi-Yau manifold. A black hole has a set of quantal units of area on its event horizon. These are identified with quantum states, and are a partition of integers for counting the number of states on a black hole horizon. The area of a black hole is composed of little quanta of areas given by a sum of integers n_i >= 0,

          A = 4 π a(n_1 + n_2 + ... n_m)

          where this total number N = n_1 + n_2 + ... n_m can be written according to the integer partition. Another way of thinking about this is that the string modes can exist in a distribution which is an integer parition. This is the holographic principle in action, where the event horizon or stretched horizon is composed of a "gas" of strings.

          The density of states for a string is tr(w^N) , which for N = \sum_nα_{-n}α_n the string number operator. Given there are 24 string operator the computation of this generating function is tr(w^N) = f(w)^{-24} for

          F(w) = Π_{n=1}^∞(1 - w^n)

          This is a form of the Dedekind η-function and the remaining calculation leads to a form of the Hardy-Ramanujan approximation for the integer partitions. Recent results by Ono, Brunier, Folsom, and Kent in the role of modular forms in number theory has result in an exact theory for integer partitions

          The partition function for the bosonic string is a Dedekind η-function, which is usually approximated so it has a form of the Hardy-Ramanujan function. However, if one considers it under various the discrete group actions the resulting generator function is a product of Eisenstein functions. The Eisenstein function is has eigenvalue -2 with the euclideanized hyerpbolic Laplacian -y^2(∂^2/∂x^2 + ∂^2/∂y^2). This function, F(z) under the action of (1/2π)(-i∂/∂z + 1/y] is an anti-holomorphic function that is an integer partition.

          So things are moving forwards, I hope. I would say that what I have done is proximal to the foundations of the universe because it involves some important structures found by some interesting research of late. These are in particular with the AdS ~ CFT correspondence, correspondence between n-partitite entangelements and black hole types, elliptic curve structure with quantum states, Calabi-Yau forms, integer partitions, which all point to the prospect that the quantum states of supergravity are the zeros of the Riemann ς-function.

          My essay here is doing pretty well. It might be a bit overly technical, which is why it is not in the top 6, but has at least been in the top 6 through 12. I will confess that I do think some essays currently ahead of my paper do not particularly warrant the positions they hold, but that is outside my power to change. I would say the papers now ahead of mine I do regard as most reasonable are:

          Is Reality Digital or Analog? by Jarmo Matti Mäkelä

          Reality Is Ultimately Digital, and Its Program Is Still Undebugged by Tommaso Bolognesi

          A Functional Virtual Reality by Efthimios Harokopos

          The World is Either Algorithmic or Mostly Random by Hector Zenil

          Continuous Spacetime From Discrete Holographic Models by Moshe Rozali

          A Universe Programmed with Strings of Qubits by Philip Gibbs

          What Mathematics Is Most Pertinent For Describing Nature? by Felix M Lev

          Cheers LC

          Lawrence,

          thank you for taking the time to reply. For me your sentence "I would say that what I have done is proximal to the foundations of the universe because it involves some important structures found by some interesting research of late." does explain to me why you have presented this particular material. I can see that you consider this recent research groundbreaking stuff, which is one of the criteria FQXi are looking for.

          I might download your essay just for the challenge of seeing what I can decipher. It is undoubtedly too technical for me to enjoy but your high position indicates that there may be sufficient readers who have not found it so and regard it as fulfilling the competition evaluation criteria well.The very best of luck to you. Georgina.

          This is a bit of an update. Things have been very quiet of late. The two papers in the FQXI contest which most closely correspond to my work ARe Plillip Gibbs' and Jarmo Matti Mäkelä's. The correlation between Phil's paper and mine is fairly clear, as both invovle quantum bits in n-partite entanglements. My paper does though invoke a discrete structure when applied to the AdS spacetime. Mäkelä's paper came about at the right time, for his program, outlined in the narrative with Newton, is an accounting of states on a black hole. This has come concurrent with the recent proof of an exact formula for the partitions of the integers. The Eisenstein construction is due to a coset construction with a discrete group from the Calabi-Yau form. This tightens up the ansatz I invoke on the Z_3. So this is an ongoing process at this time.

          Cheers LC

          8 days later
          • [deleted]

          Quote:

          The connection between light cones and quantum physics is drawn tighter with the discrete structure.

          Discrete structures are more appropriate for quantum information. In what follows the entanglement types

          of 3 or 4 quantum bit system is equivalent to black hole types, which is extended to the AdS spacetime

          as well. The Taub-NUT spacetime is essentially just a black hole with the meaning of radius and time

          reversed in the metric elements.

          end of quote

          Lawrence, I would like to know what precisely you mean by the "connection between the light cones, and quantum physics". can you e mail me with more details?

          Andrew Beckwith, e mail of rwill9955b@yahoo.com

            The discrete Klein group structure defines a light cone structure and a Heisenberg group. This involves a bit of mathematics, which went beyond the scope of my paper here --- if you get too mathematical you do not do so well.

            The AdS_{n+1} group of isometries O(n,2) contains a Mobius subgroup, or modular transformations, so that this discrete group does not necessarily act effectively on AdS_{n+1}. This means that the discrete group Γ is not necessarily convergent on the boundary space M_n. Such a convergence means there exists a sequence {g_i} \in Γ which admits a "north-south" dynamics of poles p^{+/-} on a sphere, which in the hyperbolic case defines the past and future portions of a light cone. The limit set of a discrete group is a closed Γ -invariant subset that defines a Λ _ Γ \subset M_n so the complement \Omega_ Γ acts properly on M_n. This Γ -invariant closed subset of Λ _ Γ \subset L_n is the space of lightlike geodesic in M_n.. This has some interesting properties. The action of Γ on Λ _ Γ U AdS_{n+1} (U = union) is contained in M_n. The open set Λ _ Γ is the maximal set that the Γ acts properly on Ω_ Γ UAdS_{n+1}. The other is the discrete group Γ is Zariski dense in O(n,~2).

            The lightlike geodesics in M_n are copies of RP^1, which at a given point p define a set that is the lightcone C(p). The point p is the projective action of π(v) for v a vector in a local patch R^{n,2} and so C(p) is then π(P∩C^{n,2}), for P normal to v, and C^{n,2} the region on R^{n,2} where the interval vanishes.

            The space of lightlike geodesics is a set of invariants and then due to a stabilizer on O(n,2), so the space of lightlike curves L_n is identified with the quotient O(n,2)/P, where P is a subgroup defined the quotient between a subgroup with a Zariski topology, or a Borel subgroup, and the main group G = O(n,~2). This quotient G/P is a projective algebraic variety, or flag manifold and P is a parabolic subgroup. The natural embedding of a group H --> G composed with the projective variety G --> G/P is an isomorphism between the H and G/P. This is then a semi-direct product G = PxH. For the G any GL(n) the parabolic group is a subgroup of upper triangular matrices. An example of such a matrix with real valued elements is the Heisenberg group of 3x3 matrices.

            Cheers LC

            • [deleted]

            I respectfully beg to differ with L.C. Fresher minds are doubting the validity of nonlocality, but we dare not speak up lest our self-satisfied professors not toss us the occasional publishing bone. It is no longer acceptable to question the dogma of the "True Faith" of the Powerful and Academically Mighty. LC, understandably, wants to keep it that way.