SECOND PART of my answer.

(The ultimate bottom)

You find a contradiction between placing indivisible atoms of spacetime at the bottom of reality, and the need for a digital computer that runs the evolution of this collection of atoms. You seem annoyed by the fact that such a digital computer would represent a 'deeper background structure' beneath the level of these indivisible spacetime atoms, requiring perhaps even an operator (you ask 'who/what manages this digital computer'?): discrete spacetime would no longer be the very 'bottom' of the universe. The answer is simple: I do NOT postulate the existence of such a computer, in the basement or elsewhere, as clearly written at the bottom of page 1 in my essay. An algorithm, as well as a differential equation, is simply a formal way to describe dynamics. No need for hardware.

(Computation and curvature)

You write that 'at the center of a black hole, a digital computation is not possible because spacetime curvature becomes infinite'. I completely agree that your PC (or even my Mac!) would start having computing problems a while after crossing a black hole horizon. But, again, we are not talking about hardware, we are abstractly talking about computation. Better: computations on graphs. The variety of structures and phenomena that one can obtain out of algorithmically evolving graphs is formidable. A cheap proof of this, if you wish, is that when you describe phenomena such as those involving black holes, you tend to visualize things precisely in terms of points and arrows, which is what directed graphs are made of...

By the way, a very good 1999 paper by Margenstern and Morita proves that, in the context of cellular automata, spatial (negative) curvature offers indeed a great computational advantage over flat space (M. Margenstern, K. Morita, 'A Polynomial Solution for 3-SAT in the Space of Cellular Automata in the Hyperbolic Plane', Journal of Universal Computer Science, vol. 5, no. 9, Springer, 1999, pp. 563-573). Amazing.

However, to me, the appropriate question is not whether a computation is possible inside a black hole, but, rather, what IS a black hole, how does it look like or manifest, in a graph-based, computational spacetime. I don't know. But simple concepts such as sink node (one with only incoming arcs), or strongly connected components are available that may help. Curvature can also be defined for (planar) graphs, called 'combinatorial curvature'. It is only finite, but possibly unbounded, if you grow the number of faces sharing the inspected node, as it can indeed happen in some of my algorithmic causal sets.

(Quantum effects)

If I had good answers for these problems, they would have appeared very early in the essay. Stephen Wolfram has some potentially useful suggestions for entanglement (NKS book, ch. 9). I have long discussed the quantum effects issue with Alex Lamb, who is also participating to this Contest , and he half-managed to convince me that a form of nonlocality could be achieved if we imagine the algorithmic graph rewriting to take place directly on the causal set, rather than on an underlying spatial support, as I've done so far.

But the more general question is: are we going to eventually apply the standard QM techniques and compose instances of discrete spacetime in a gravitational path integral -- a sum over histories? Perhaps... but later. In doing so, we could follow, for example, the work of Renate Loll and collaborators, who take sums of causal dynamic triangulations (CDT) of spacetimes, and investigate consequences such as emergent spacetime dimension. But I am reluctant to do this, at least before having fully explored the potential of a classical approach to emergence in discrete, computational spacetime. Exciting phenomena such as those illustrated at Figures 3 - 5 of my essay would probably be obscured by a QM treatment.

Finally, while I have no problems in conceiving 'computations' without 'computers', I am more skeptical about defining 'observations' without 'observers', and QM effects do depend on rather intrusive observers, engaging in interactions that affect both the observed and the observer subsystem. In a tiny, discrete, newborn universe that has just reached the size of say 33 elements -- counting edges, nodes, faces, or simplices -- is there enough room for this interaction? Is there room for an observer? (an INTERNAL observer, that is). Maybe quantum effects, and perhaps even relativistic ones, unfold only at a later stage, when entities emerge that can play the role of (proto-)observers. But this is only wild speculation.

  • [deleted]

Dear Tommaso,

My remark concerns your as well as other purely 'computational approaches' to physics.

What troubles me about them is that they fail to address the nature of physical reality: as I discussed elsewhere, theory of computability came out of logic and has never been concerned with this question.

At the same time, physics is the central natural science, and if it does not address the above question, as it has tried to do so far, we are left with no science addressing it.

  • [deleted]

Dear Tommaso:

I think my previous question - or the answer for it- got lost with the answer from an for Constantin.

I think your essay is great and your proposal of identifying space time "atoms" with a cellular automata yet to be debugged and understood is plausible. From experiments - or simulations- like the ones presented in "new kind of science" and in your essay we see "particles" and all sorts of things emerge. We could even find quantum mechanics emerging from there.

As you say, the automata are not yet "seen" and not debugged.

I think - as I propose in my essay- it might also be plausible to search the basic automata on the particles or sub particles instead of in space-time. I identify the basic automata with particles and see space and time derived from the interaction. Unfortunatly I haven't done concrete definitions and experimentation.

I feel my approach may have the problem of having more complex automata but might be easier to codify relativity and quantum mechanics in there.

Now, again, could you comment on the different approaches?. I do believe in an algorithmic universe, as many others -like Hector Zenil- do.

Regards

    • [deleted]

    Dear Juan Enrique Ramos Beraud,

    You supports Tommaso' essay because you have the same essay ''Universe is a computer'' with the similar statements and errors. If you want I can review your essay and show you a lot of flaws in your essay.

    Sincerely,

    Constantin

    • [deleted]

    Dear Tommaso,

    Your answers are unconvincing and wrong. Moreover, I suspect that you are trying to suppress my questions by the stream of senseless information. It is impossible to find the answers for these questions because this theory is fundamentally wrong.

    Let us begin again with quantum mechanics. Your essay states that all the complexity we observe, from subatomic particles to the biosphere, is a manifestation of the emergent properties of a digital computation that takes place at the smallest spacetime scale. How this digital computation can explain the simple motion of free particle, the Heisenberg uncertainty? For this purpose this digital computation must know the absolute information position-momentum about every particle before events occurs, that is forbidden by quantum mechanics.

    And I don't see any answer for this problem; your words about Quantum effects, Stephen Wolfram, Renate Loll explain nothing; It is a stream of senseless information. You cannot explain it by definition; it is a fundamental flaw in this theory.

    The next flaw about black holes: I found at least one place where the digital computation can not exist, it is a proof that this theory is wrong.

    And your answer is senseless: ''I completely agree that your PC (or even my Mac!) would start having computing problems a while after crossing a black hole horizon. But, again, we are not talking about hardware, we are abstractly talking about computation''. Do you think your spatial atoms will be able to process information inside of black hole, in singularity? Inside of the Black Hole the exchange of information is not possible, therefore the digital computation cannot work. Since I found at least one phenomenon/place that exist without need in the digital computation, it is a proof this theory is wrong.

    Another argument also is not valid: ''By the way, a very good 1999 paper by Margenstern and Morita proves that, in the context of cellular automata, spatial (negative) curvature offers indeed a great computational advantage over flat space''. They refer about the usual curvature but not infinite curvature, singularity.

    Thus, this theory is fundamentally wrong.

    Regards,

    Constantin

      • [deleted]

      Constantin:

      If you find my essay wrong, it's own thread is the place to comment it, and yes I would love the criticism.

      Tommaso:

      I would like some comments any way.

      Yours.

      Juan Enrique Ramos Beraud

      • [deleted]

      Dear Tommaso

      After recovering from my cataract operations I re-read your essay, and enjoyed the lovely photo of the pomegranate and the beautiful causal set plots. I also read the paper by Reid that you referred to. I still do not understand several aspects of causal sets. With my limited understanding of the technicalities involved I will try to express my reaction to the concept as applied to physics: You started by discussing automata and I could follow the logic of causality between nodes following a simple algorithm as in Wolfram's NKS. I have no access to the printed references of your other papers and could not understand the Termite simulations.

      Generally I think complications occur when applying the automata concept to physics. GR and Quantum mechanics are accepted as they are now formulated, and the simplicity of a node structure has to be abandoned to accommodate their physically unrealistic and mutually incongruous methodologies. The resulting causal sets are bloated beyond necessity. In my earlier 2005 Beautiful Universe theory on which my present fqxi paper is based, both GR and QM have to be reverse-engineered and some complications discarded before my simple dielectric node-interactions are applied. Hope this makes some sort of sense!

      Best wishes from Vladimir

      At that level, a universal computation keeps running. We do not know yet

      the program code, but, in accordance with a fundamental principle of minimality

      ('Occam razor'), we like to believe that it is small, at least initially.

      Tommaso,

      Do you think we will ever know the "program code"? You provide a fetching argument, but I tend to believe that reality is unknowable, though my argument isn't as definitive as yours.

      Jim Hoover

        Hi Juan Enrique,

        first let me clarify once more that the computational model I regard as most promising for deriving causal sets (that is, instances of spacetime) is NOT cellular automata, but network mobile automata, a sort of Turing machine acting on graphs by applying graph rewrite rules. In the causal sets derived from the computations of this model, MANY 'particles' may emerge as a result of the operation of ONE single, state-less control head, as it happens with Turmites. With cellular automata you may also obtain many particles, but you have to assume the synchronous action of MANY cells (many active elements). One active element is cheaper than many.

        It seems that the ingredients you require for cooking your universe are MANY particles, modeled as some sort of relatively complex automata. It would be interesting to run some simulation of your system, for checking what might possibly emerge. Being very lucky, this might give some anticipation of what could happen when starting with more minimalistic assumptions.

        But, for interacting, your automata probably need a background where to move. That's additional work to be carried out, and another elements that adds 'weight' to the model...

        Cheers

        Tommaso

        • [deleted]

        Constantin,

        your last post is basically a cut and paste of your original message: I could probably cut and paste my original answer again here (but I won't). Apparently, none of my arguments has succeeded in convincing you that there are many good reasons for investigating the computational universe conjecture (not 'theory'), in spite of the many problems that are still open. Never mind. I still see the glass half-full, while you see it half-empty...

        Tommaso

        PS - When you cross a black-hole horizon, nothing special happens to you; hitting the singularity at its center is another story. But in a discrete model of spacetime there is no room for infinities, and we talk, for example, of huge, but still finite curvature. A computation may well produce (or take place on) a graph with huge curvature!

        • [deleted]

        Thanks on the comments. Very enlightening.

        • [deleted]

        Yes, my last post is basically a cut and paste of my original message because I don't received any rational answer. Your ''answer'' explains nothing, it is a stream of senseless information; I'm afraid it is impossible to find an answer because it is a fundamental flaw in this theory.

        ''I could probably cut and paste my original answer again here.'' It makes no sense to cut and paste it, since it is a senseless information. Your ''original answer'' cannot explain my questions and therefore it is senseless.

        ''But in a discrete model of spacetime there is no room for infinities, and we talk, for example, of huge, but still finite curvature''.

        Please read Wikipedia Black Hole - ''At the center of a black hole lies a gravitational singularity, a region where the spacetime curvature becomes infinite. Inside of Black Hole the exchange of information is not possible, consequently no computation is possible. Since I found at least one phenomenon that exist without need in computation conjecture, it is a proof this theory/essay is wrong.

        Also this theory is forbidden by quantum mechanics and Heisenberg Uncertainty. The computational conjecture is not able to explain the motion of a simple particle and Heisenberg Uncertainty. To process the motion of particle, your computation conjecture must know the complete information about position and momentum before events occurs. Also I found other errors yet in this theory.

        ''there are many good reasons for investigating the computational universe conjecture''

        We need the true, powerful Science, if we support the erroneous theories our civilization may die. There are revolutionary theories supported by nobody because all money are absorbed by false theories. It is a crime against humanity and science to support the false theories.

        Constantin

        Hi James,

        I am certainly optimistic about the possibility for science to understand more and more about nature, but I can imagine at least one way in which this process will never come to a conclusion. The upper end of the hierarchy of natural emergence is a moving target, that science cannot anticipate, but only monitor. I believe that science will never be able to predict the major evolutionary steps in the history of the universe, or the next layer of emergence (a simple retrospective example of such a step would be the appearance of life as we know today). The reason is that simulating this evolution would take at least as much time as the time taken by nature for unfolding it for real. There is no computational shortcut. In this respect, Wolfram had the right intuition with his concept of 'computational irreducibility'.

        Nevertheless, I expect a number of nice progresses to happen, as we try to figure out the 'program code' for nature. To me, one of the most desirable achievement is as follows. We should be able to find a simple program in which the localized entities that emerge should not only be capable of Turing-universal interactions (this has been done), but should also manifest some ability to modify their own behavior, to compete, and to evolve, giving rise to a sort of Darwinian ecology. I am fully convinced that the mechanisms of natural selection and evolution should play a role also at the level of physics, not only of biology. Perhaps a first indication of this trend would be the emergence of a population of entities that act as sequential (in the sense of stateful), as opposed to combinatorial (stateless) devices. Note that this whole system should be fully supported by the operation of ONE control head only. And, we should not explicitly program the system for behaving like that -- it should all emerge for free. This is what I believe is possible, and has NOT been done yet!

        As I suggest at the beginning of my essay, it would also be great if the rule of operation of this little automaton were not fixed apriori, but evolved itself...

        Dear Tommaso

        I read your essay with great interest, I think the possibility of model reality based on a digital model is a very interesting point but the potentiality it does not reside on the discreteness but on emergence. I tried to explain this on my essay from a different perspective that reveal the importance or true meaning of the digital approach, I would like to hear your opinions about it.

        Regards,

        J. Benavides

          Hi John,

          I've read your essay and I really like it. I will rate it, and comment at your page. Ciao

          Tommaso

          P.S. Fotini Markopoulou is a 'she', not 'he'.

          • [deleted]

          Hello,

          I liked this essay. I think it is more appropriate for this contest although I think it considers a very restrictive view of the problem. Unlike the other three essays of high popularity, which I basically believe they should not have been accepted at all, this essay offers a novel perspective although too "ontological".

            • [deleted]

            Peter, I think your comment is mean and uninformed. You should be reminded to be constructive. Remember that the essays are being rated by the community too, so if you think they don't even deserve to be accepted you are also disqualifying the rest of the participants.

            Thank you Peter.

            I guess that any unifying theory of everything, and, in particular, one based on emergence, will be somehow 'restrictive' by definition: it will consist of a simple, completely abstract-looking, computational rule, and all the rest should emerge from there. Proving that the right physics eventually emerges will require a lot of additional brain and computer work, but that would not be, strictly speaking, part of the fundamental theory. Anyway, I suspect this is not what you meant by 'restrictive' -- or was it?

            As for the 'ontological' flavor, in fact I am doing a lot of concrete things in my daily research on this topic, as reported in some of the references. Mainly, I am designing and implementing algorithms, turning computations into causal sets (spacetime candidates), monitoring their behaviors by devising appropriate complexity indicators, and so on. Several essays in this contest seem to follow much more philosophical paths.