Georgina Parry replied on Oct. 31, 2011 @ 20:34 GMT
Paul,
I am not talking about how individuals understand or think about the data they have received because of education, upbringing or social environment. You are bringing all that to the table. I have been talking about a simple physical process of input and output. Same for a camera, input and output.
Tom has explained to me on several occasions what I said to you about unmeasurable reality. I respect his opinions, even though I frequently disagree with him.
Scientist -are- interested in the underlying physical (measurable )production of observed phenomena, but not in hypothetical unmeasurable causes or sources of measurable phenomena. That has been the difference.If it can be measured it can be put into a maths model if it can't, it can't and it may as well not exist. That keeps out the wishes, spells and miracles.
The "magic" rabbit is interesting once it is out of the hat. Undetectable concealed inside the hat it is unmeasurable and therefore might only have at best a probability of existing somewhere in the hat assigned to it. It might be considered both existent and non existent, similar to the famous live-dead cat. If the rabbit can be revealed there was a rabbit, if not there wasn't a rabbit. Only upon observation is the rabbit thought to exist as a rabbit, rather than a probability wave of a rabbit.
Whereas, and this is my reasoning, it -had to be- an actualised rabbit- with existence, to become a manifestation. IE the source object had to exist for the data to be produced so that the manifestation can be observed. Which means the actualisation, the existing rabbit, had to precede the observed manifestation.
Rather than being an existent non existent rabbit within a multiverse the rabbit was an existent rabbit within the continually changing object universe, if it was later revealed. Actualizations preceded manifestations. Which seems at odds with the widespread view that it is the past that becomes the present. That is only the case for actualisations which become new actualisations, the former becoming the what is. When it comes to observation it is what has happened unobserved (producing the pre-written future , data already within the environment ) that becomes the observed present. That is another answer.
You are right "as seen" is not good enough. There is more than meets the eye. Not admitting this, in order to keep out wishes, spells and miracles, allows magic and deception in and that leads on to supernatural explanations.
IMHO.
Georgina Parry replied on Oct. 31, 2011 @ 23:08 GMT
I think that reply to Paul might be of interest to others too. Please take a look and tell me what you think. It raises an interesting epistemic question about what should be admissible within a scientific model of reality.
Deeming the rabbit to have had actualised existence prior to observation, when the manifestation is observed seems reasonable to me. Prior to observation its being in a supposition of states would only be a representation of lack of complete knowledge not the state/whereabouts of the rabbit. An abstract mathematical representation not something that exists within reality. Within reality it is either in the hat as an actualised rabbit, with chemical structure, prior to observation, or not.
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In the post Oct. 31, 2011 @ 20:34 GMT
I said "that keeps out the wishes, spells and miracles". Actually, to be more precise it keeps out anything that is conjecture or imagination or wishful thinking rather than that for which there is empirical evidence.