Dear Gordon,

Thank you for your comments. I understand that you consider yourself a local realist. Then how can you at the same time assent to Bohr's statement that "the result of a 'measurement' does not in general reveal some preexisting property of the 'system', but is a product of both 'system' and 'apparatus',"?

It seems to me that the hallmark of realism is the assumption that generally the system has pre-existing properties. I think if you can explain to me how you reconcile the two, then this will go a long way towards me being able to understand your point of view.

Armin

    Thanks for referring me to Baierlein. It throws some light on what confuses many as to the bone of contention, (in my humble opinion) myself not included.

    The straight forward issues in logical steps.

    1. What is speed?

    Speed is the time taken to cover a given distance, i.e. distance/time.

    2. Can this value be altered by the motion of the observer while what is travelling is already in transit or would this value always be the same no matter how the observer as long as what is travelling is already emitted and in transit?

    Lorentz transformation: Once light is already in transit, the subsequent motion of the source or observer cannot alter the arrival time over the distance at emission. And the experimental evidence for this claim is the Michelson-Morley experiment as the motion of the earth had no effect on the arrival times of light while the light was in transit (as shown using fringe shifts). Hence the basis for postulating that the speed of light, or more properly stated, the resultant speed of light is a universal constant. In order to mathematically and physically enforce this, length is contracted to prevent later arrival times when receptor is moving away from incoming light, and time is dilated to prevent earlier light arrival times for receptor moving towards the source.

    Galilean transformation: Light arrival times can be varied if the observer moves while the light is already in transit but yet to arrive. It can be hastened or delayed depending whether observer (receptor) moves towards or away from the incoming light respectively. However, if the travelling light, the source and the observer are ALL in the same ship, then motion of the source or observer will have no effect on arrival times inside Galileo's ship. (Analogously, the speed of sound too is independent of earth motion since emitter, the receptor, the sound and its medium are all in the same moving ship).

    The above is what has been argued back and forth for over 100 years. Evidence now abounds that motion of the receptor while light is already emitted and in transit WILL affect light arrival times. You can check this paper, Conducting a Crucial Experiment of the Constancy of the Speed of Light Using GPS by the celebrated physicist Ron Hatch and R. Wang.

    Talking about quoting Baierlein, I think it better to quote Einstein himself:

    "But ALL experiments have shown that electromagnetic and optical phenomena, relatively to the earth as the body of reference, ARE NOT influenced by the translational velocity of the earth. The most important of these experiments are those of Michelson and Morley, which I shall assume are known. The validity of the principle of special relativity can therefore hardly be doubted", p.27/28. That is SR's validity depends on the FACT that no optical phenomena must be influenced by the earth's motion, the MM experiment being one such.(The caps and bold emphasis are mine).

    It is always a pleasure to do dialectic with you. Since you are talented in math, I referred a contestant Gordon Watson to ask you look and criticize his essay. He posted on your thread here under your reply to Adel on Mar. 16, 2015 @ 08:53 GMT

    Regards,

    Akinbo

    Dear Akinbo,

    I can only tell you how I think about this issue, and it is as follows:

    The problem is with your assumption 1. It does not apply to light. Although we express the speed of light in terms of meters/second it is *not* fundamentally defined in terms of distance per time. It is defined in terms of wavelength times frequency (note they end up having the same dimensional units). In any other situation this distinction would not matter, because you can express wavelength in terms of ruler lengths and periods (inverse frequencies) in terms of clock ticks, but for light this difference does matter.

    Think about it this way: If it really was the case that you could fundamentally express lightspeed in terms of some units of distance per time, then there would be logically nothing preventing you from expressing it in terms of the passage of zero units distance per time; in other words there would be nothing preventing you from finding a rest frame for light.

    While it might seem very strange that your obvious and reasonable assumption cannot apply to light, it only seems so because back in your mind you are thinking of light as something that is traveling in space. But if it were traveling in space, then that would mean that it has a definite trajectory. From quantum mechanics we know that this is not the case. I believe it is reasonable to infer from the fact that photons do not have definite trajectories that they do not travel in space. If they do not travel in space, then, once again, you cannot apply the notion of distance per time to the speed associated with their "travel".

    None of this is very controversial, but what I consider to be the fundamental insight here that "unties" all these conceptual knots in one fell swoop is: the idea that photons do not exist in spacetime. If you are willing to accept this for a moment, then you will have a natural explanation for every single one of the above conceptual difficulties.

    As for my alleged mathematical talents, I honestly do not see myself as particularly talented in math. Whatever skills I might have built up came from a lot of toil, sweat and pain. I do wish, however, I was mathematically talented because it would make my life a lot easier.

    I briefly looked at Gordon's paper, and I think the reason it has been rated so low is that he could have made it hardly any more uninviting to read. It will take some self-discipline on my part to go through it, but before I even make the attempt, I first want to find out what exactly his position is (see my comment to him below).

    Best,

    Armin

    I forgot to add a comment on my understanding of what you meant by photon existence paradox. You said, "I must say I still don't see why the photon existence paradox would be a problem for relativists. Note that I am using the term "paradox" here in the way it is usually used in the context of SR, namely, as a puzzle which seems like a paradox but is not a paradox at all if one understands the implications of the theory correctly".

    This is why I consider it a problem. According to SR time does not pass or flow for a photon. That is time of emission, time of absorption are simultaneous AND SAME FOR A PHOTON. Hence your logical poser how then can photon exist? Since you say it is not a problem, what explanation have you heard from SR relativists?

    While wishing you well in your work to device a solution to the poser you discovered, you may wish to include whether when light speed slows like when it enters and passes through water, is there any change in its existential state? Does time still stop and not flow while the photon is in water? The equation of time stopping according to the Lorentz equation is:

    t' = t в€љ(1 - v2/c2)

    so when v = c, so t' of a moving photon is zero. However in water when v = 0.75c, according to the vixra paper striving to justify spacetime and unify SR and QM in a manner "in which they can be said to be "unified", what does 0.75c imply for photon's existence?

    Akinbo

    *Thank you for your thoughts on the perishing topic. I think after reading my essay you may have more advice on the subject.

    Re: Your reply that light speed = wavelength X frequency

    and not distance traversed per unit time.

    From my physics book...

    What is wavelength?

    Wavelength is distance between two successive waveforms.

    What is frequency?

    Frequency is number of waveforms generated per second.

    Therefore Wavelength X Frequency = the distance the waveform moves in one second.

    That is light speed is BOTH wavelength X frequency AND distance covered by waveform in one second.

    I admit you may already have invested in or betted heavily on SR and it may now be difficult or too late in the day to beat a retreat.

    All the best,

    Akinbo

    Thank you for reading my essay: mine is not courage, it is absolute disinterest in the voting mechanism, that permit me to completely freeing the imagination, and narrative.

    It is interesting your essay, but I am not convinced that there is not inconsistence in some physical results.

    It should create a physical system that reflect on itself, a system with a feedback to measure itself, to create contradiction: each measure of a system, that it is denied by the apparatus, and that it is used to measure the state; I am thinking two Schrodinger's cats, where the measure of the quantum death of the cat destroy the hydrocyanic poison of the other cat, and the life of the cat activate the hydrocyanic poison of the other cat, I think that there is contradiction in the quantum description (some simpler system could be created).

    The modal logic, if I understand the concepts, seem to extend the Peano arithmetic to the real number, where the Godel's incompletess theorem is not valid.

    Dear Akinbo,

    "Hence your logical poser how then can photon exist?"

    Well, this is a key point that my dimensional theory addresses and I don't think I could adequately summarize it in this small space.

    " Since you say it is not a problem, what explanation have you heard from SR relativists?"

    I have heard none. Most relativists deny that there is a problem because they say that since no spacetime observer can transform to a photon frame, the question makes no sense. Once I had the opportunity to personally ask Jakob Bekenstein, one of the foremost living relativists in the world, what he thought of this, and he immediately brushed it off by saying "That's just philosophy".

    Of course, all these maneuvers are (probably subconscious) moves to cover up the fact that they don't have a good (or, really, any) answer: You *can* make sense out of statements about photon frames simply by referring to them as frames to which no spacetime observer can transform and, since the photon existence paradox involves quantities of space and time it is *not* just philosophy.

    I do have an answer, but it does not fit the current worldview, but I have dedicated my efforts (and really, at this point, my life) to changing this.

    Your question about the change of lightspeed in media has to take into account that this slowing is only an averaging while the photon is absorbed and the re-emitted many times between the atoms of the medium. As such, it has no bearing on the fundamental issues involved because in between the absorption and emission events, it still travels at c.

    Best,

    Armin

    "That is light speed is BOTH wavelength X frequency AND distance covered by waveform in one second."

    Well, like I said, in most cases the distinction does not matter, and you cannot expect an introductory physics text to seriously attempt to teach nuances like this at the frontiers of our knowledge.

    But you are welcome to hold whatever opinion you wish, I simply told you how I think about the issue.

    Best,

    Armin

    Dear Domenico,

    Thank you for reading my essay and for your comments. Yes, disinterest is one of the greatest guarantors of freedom (and power, I might add).

    If I am understanding your comment about my essay correctly, you have some skepticism about the consistency of standard quantum mechanics. If this is really the case, then I am very surprised by your nonchalance in giving a possible counter example. Proving quantum mechanics inconsistent would seem to be a an extraordinarily huge deal! Is that some more of that disinterest at work?

    Although it might be possible, I am not aware of any mechanism by which modal logic permits one to extend the natural numbers to the reals. I use the modality to capture a distinction that cannot be expressed in the language of ordirnary classical logic.

    Thanks again for your comments, and if you have any more thoughts about my essay, feel free to express them to me.

    Best wishes,

    Armin

    Hi Armin,

    I responded to your "kind and heartwarming" comments regarding my Digital Physics movie essay in the discussion forum on my page. I also had some thoughts on your Copenhagen Interpretation youtube video which I included in my response.

    Thanks for reading my essay and your interest in the movie! Your FQXi essay, as opposed to more of your youtube videos, will be the next thing I will be taking a look at and commenting on.

    Thanks again,

    Jon

      Dear Armin,

      Thanks for starting at this point, especially as some "local realists" tend avoid it.

      I trust we agree that all Nature's extant objects have actual and potential properties?

      We then note: Bohr says, "the result of a 'measurement' (with scare quotes) does not in general reveal some pre-existing property." Thus, if I send you a randomly polarised particle, its interaction (without scare quotes) with your polarising apparatus will produce (P>0) a new orientation of polarisation; which is NOT the same as revealing a pre-existing one. Rather

      ACTUAL POTENTIAL -> INTERACTION -> NEW ACTUAL NEW POTENTIAL.

      This is my reason for linking Bohr's view here (not elsewhere) to your own.

      BUT now we must clean up these intuitive ideas MATHEMATICALLY.

      So, taking care with Nature, we hold a consequence of realism to be: 'At all times, the set of actual properties possessed by a system (here, particle plus apparatus)* fully determines all relevant probabilities of potential properties of the system.' See paragraph #2.1, etc., in my essay.

      * Including my sister's cat in the system if it might be relevant!

      Armin, in closing, and subject to some refinements, I trust we are close to agreement here? More questions, please, if we are not.

      With best regards; Gordon Watson: Essay Forum. Essay Only.

      Dear Armin,

      Thanks for the exchange. It gives me a kind of pleasure when my "opponents", wriggle and wreathe trying to explain a question in a convoluted kind of way because of a belief that they must not let go a dogma they are holding on to. When I say opponent, I mean it in a friendly way.

      An example of this wriggling is that: "the relation, distance travelled/ time taken does not apply to light speed"! Roemer, Galileo, Newton, Maxwell would probably convulse in their graves :)

      Then, in addition "light IS NOT something that is traveling in space", "photons do not have definite trajectories", "you cannot apply the notion of distance per time to the speed associated with their "travel".

      This new doctrine is thus meant to replace what we know about the rectilinear propagation of light, how light is focused by a lens at a focal point without any probability that the focal point will change, etc.

      So as not to cause a distraction from your essay, may I just ask one more question and we can continue this outside your essay forum.

      Given a light source, e.g. a pulsar say 10^3 light seconds away, and sending out pulses once every 60 seconds, such that the moment a pulse is detected, another is already emitted and on on its way and would be detected also after 60 seconds. So we have detections every 60 seconds. Now if, on detecting a pulse, the observer moves towards the next incoming pulse, can he reduce the detection time to 59 seconds? Again, if on detection, the observer moves away from the already incoming and in-flight photon, can he delay the detection time to 61 seconds?

      Why I frame the question this way is that the fundamental issues under contention between Galilean relativity and SR are easily mixed up or swept under the carpet, the same way Bekenstein has swept your photon existence paradox under the carpet.

      Your answer to these framed question will indicate whether you appreciate what SR doctrine really means to physics and what is under contention. At your free time crosscheck that the Einstein quote I send is correct (about the validity of SR depending on earth motion not influencing optical phenomena).

      All the best,

      Akinbo

      *If you don't mind can you find any fault in the math used by Gordon Watson. You are better than me at math. I note you have made some non-mathematical comments.

      Dear Armin,

      I also belief, that the distinction between actuality and possibility is needed to give a consistent interpretation of quantum mechanics. In my essay - following Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker - the time structure is essential. The past being factual (something has happened or not), the future being possible. Mathematics is then the imagination of possible acts in the future, which would lead to a constructivistic justification of mathematics. What role plays time in your theory?

      I'd would be happy you could read my essay and comment on it.

      Many thanks

      Luca

        Hi Akinbo,

        Before I respond to your comments, I have a question:

        Above you gave a an elementary textbook definition of wavelength as the distance between two successive waveforms. Am I correct in believing that you hold this definition to be exact? If not why not?

        Armin

        Hi Armin,

        I must admit, learning a new form of logic is difficult, but I still want to ask you some questions even though I did not grasp all of your essay.

        Do you think in your model where you consider a quantum 2-D object which has the potential to become a 3-D object (instead of a 3-D object with one dimension consisting of every possible value) you could still account for interference patterns as seen in the double slit experiment?

        Your talk about our freedom to choose consistent axiom systems made me think about how certain propositions may not be provable in certain axiom systems, but may be provable in others. Have you seen Stephen Wolfram's work where he talks about enumerating different axiom systems and showing what theorems are provable under each? There's a lot of overlap in what theorems are provable in each consistent axiom system, but there are still some differences. How do you think this relates to your view that the "freedom to choose one's axioms coupled with the requirement of consistency should naturally lead us to expect mathematics to be unreasonably effective in modeling reality, but that this unreasonable effectiveness only exists, as it were, as an actualizability until human imagination transforms (parts of) mathematics into an actually effective model of reality."?

        You talk of ZFC (and your ZFCD)... Do you think the axiom of choice is reasonable axiom in a system that contains real numbers which are uncomputable? How could one actually choose one of these uncomputable reals, if they cannot be specified in a finite way. Unlike computable real numbers like pi and e, most real numbers cannot be referred to in an algorithmic way because they have uncompressible information, so therefore there is no finite way to refer to them. Maybe this is where your thoughts on "imagination" comes in?

        Also, is ZFCD trying to be a meta-mathematical theory that tries to explore the ramifications of an incomplete system being consistently extended, from a general perspective?

        Is what you describe as "pro-actually" a form of determinism, where what you define as "actualizably" a more probabilistic view of the future? How would you view the question of whether a 10,000 digit number was prime or not from this perspective?

        You said:

        "Thus, the context can be interpreted as a sample space and the measure associated with the "collapse" of actualizabilities (i.e emergence of an actual outcome) in the absence of an e-spec is just what we call probability. This measure is different from non-probabilistic measures because it is over a set in the outer domain, and thereby captures the concept of probability."

        Is this related to the idea that something may be considered probabilistic until a proper fully-predictive theory is found? Is it related to the mathematical fact that we don't know if we are up against a true and unprovable statement or if we just haven't done enough searching to find a proof? Is something that is undecidable, probabilistic from this point of view? Are you familiar with Gregory Chaitin's omega constant?

        I think you might have some interest in some of the questions I posed at the end of my essay. Somehow many of them seem very relevant to your work. Please consider taking a crack at answering one of them.

        Thanks,

        Jon

          Dear Jon.

          Thank you for your kind remarks, I see that you asked me below many excellent questions. I will respond to them, but because my response will be a long one, I ask for a little time.

          Best,

          Armin

          Dear Luca,

          Thank you for your comments, I will leave some remarks on your site as well.

          In answer to your questions, time plays multiple roles in my framework. this manifests itself among other things in the following:

          1. There is a semantic duality between actualizability in the present world and actuality in a possible future worlds. For that reason my logical operators could also be regarded as temporal modal operators.

          2. The frame work explains quantum phenomena in terms of the absence of a characterization in terms of a (spacetime) coordinate time.

          3. The axiom takes us from the absence of this association to a superposition of two time directionalities, thereby connecting it both with the Born Rule and the fact that the differential equation that gives the time-evolution of quantum states (i.e. the Schroedinger equation) is time symmetric.

          There are other roles for time which I cannot get into actually talking about the physics that this mathematical framework is meant to support, but in short, the concept of time is essential.

          Thank you and best wishes,

          Armin

          Dear Armin,

          You commented upon my paper so early in the process that I've been under the impression that I had read your essay and commented on it. I see that is not the case. As you've recently returned to offer valuable suggestions, I thank you for those and offer my views on your essay.

          You begin by extolling the freedom to choose one's starting assumptions as a great virtue of mathematics, limited only by consistency. You then note that the ZFC is generally regarded today as the foundation of mathematics, yet it is not known with absolute certainty that it is itself consistent.

          Your own contribution, which you label tentative, is based in "free logic" which, as I understand it, deals with the context of potentiality 'surrounding' the inner logic of things that 'exist', with the key operators being: 'Possibly', 'Actually', and 'Necessarily'. Based on these you formulate the Axis of Default Specification intended to extend the ZFC to handle "incompleteness".

          Your first example is designed to illustrate the use of these terms leading to an "emergence specification" which

          "Collapses" the superposition of actualizability to permit the emergence of the actual element,"

          which of course is the relation to the "quantum mechanics" in the title of your essay, and you say

          "The measure associated with the "collapse" of actualizability ... is ... probability."

          You then discuss contextuality in the context of the Peres-Mermin Magic Square which [as I understand it] is a special case of Peres table 6-1 [page 167] of 'Actual and hypothetical outcomes of N quantum tests", in which he claims that none of the possible 'filled in tables' obey the cosine correlation. He then [page 197] proves the Kochen-Specker theorem using 33 vectors in R^3.

          You note "the quantum mechanical situation invoking commuting spin operators" involves e-specs. As I develop these operators in my endnotes [and in more detail in my reference [2]] it is clear that this idealization of spin as a 'qubit' or two-state system leads to non-intuitive results and much of the mysticism of QM is traceable to this idealization.

          As QM is based on analysis of outputs, and a "good" experiment is generally one with discrete output states, the apparent fact that all measurements based on constant magnetic field tend to satisfy this "two-state" requirement is, in some respects, a "self-licking ice cream cone".

          My essay, of course, asks what happens when this overly simple characterization of spin is loosened. You recall that "the quantum state is a superposition state" which is also fascinating, given Matt Leifer's contention (also quoted in my endnotes) that, in 2015, we don't know what a quantum state is, whether it is ontological or epistemological. Yet, in our math formulas, we are free to superimpose whatever they are! And then to talk about the "collapse" of the superposition.

          You state the current consensus, that "the quantum correlations between the particles go beyond what is possible in any classical arrangement, and this was proven in a theorem by Bell."

          Of course my essay claims that Bell's "proof" is a mathematio-logical proof based on over-simplified physics. Even his basic model, before getting into the proof, is contradictory, as he assumes a constant field which yields zero, while he requires ±1 results. But you know this.

          In short, given the false conclusions (in my opinion) of the Bell theorem, you have performed an admirable analysis of the logic necessary to support or explain these false conclusions.

          You comment on my thread that to seriously consider my argument, one must be willing to question the 90 year interpretation of Stern-Gerlach. Yes indeed. The current state of confusion in quantum mechanics is such that, if after almost a century the early ideas have not yet led to clarity [I don't consider Kochen-Specker's 33-ray proof in any way 'clear', with respect to physical reality] it may well be time to revisit both the experiments, with century newer technology, and the early ideas and concepts of spin -- essentially unchanged since Goudsmit and Uhlenbeck.

          Finally, as you end your essay with a discussion of the Feynman path integral, the basis of which is the progression from state n-1 to state n [see your theorem, post equation 6 on page 8] I would call your attention to the second diagram on page 10 in my essay which links the generalized automata-representation I develop in The Automatic Theory of Physics to a Feynman quantum field theory kernel, and show the equivalence of the "next-state-address" in the automata to "potential" in standard physics. This is a novel identification that you may or may not find interesting.

          My very best regards,

          Edwin Eugene Klingman

          Hello Armin,

          I smell a 'dialectic' bait meant to entrap me and I am in a dilemma whether to swallow the bait or not :)

          I was therefore forced to Google "wavelength" and came up with these:

          *Wavelength is the distance between identical points in the adjacent cycles of a waveform signal propagated in space or along a wire.

          *In physics, the wavelength of a sinusoidal wave is the spatial period of the wave-- the distance over which the wave's shape repeats,[1] and the inverse of the spatial frequency.

          Asking whether I hold this definition to be exact or not will certainly take us into debate whether light is wave or particle or both. It would also take us into whether a medium of propagation is present or not. While not shying away from debating those contentious territories, it would becloud the fundamental basis for the validity of SR where we started this discussion from. To repeat;

          Einstein himself says, "But ALL experiments (without exception) have shown that... optical phenomena, relatively to the earth as the body of reference, ARE NOT influenced by the translational velocity of the earth...". Do you agree?

          Now, if your only condition to answer the question is my response, then I confirm that to almost all intents and purposes I hold the definition to be exact!

          Regards,

          Akinbo

          *In addition to the links on this thread, I thought I linked Herbert Dingle's book but I obviously must have done so elsewhere. SCIENCE At the Crossroads. Read these links critically and you will understand my excitement about photon existence paradox and the lack of interest by the establishment in your paradox.