Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta's comment to me on his paper's page:
Dear Paul,
Thank you very much for such nice question. Whatever you are thinking that is NOT a problem in Dynamic Universe Model; is not a problem at all. I am reproducing your full post here with my answers embedded; I did not remove any portion of your nice thinking and questions. Very good study.
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I am glad that I could be of help concerning your paper. The problem in papers like these is that when they contain an error, those who read them don't know if you just made an error or if your understanding is actually wrong, which can affect their acceptance of the concepts that you are trying to get across to the readers of your papers. I thought it was likely to be just an error. Hopefully, correcting it will give future readers a more positive reception of your concepts.
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I am very much thankful to you, I want analysis of this model.....
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Rather than going back into any of the other things that I mentioned previously, I just want to cover the main thing that I wanted to bring out, which is that when the fusion of 2 hydrogen atoms into a helium atom occurs in a star, most of the mass or matter that was originally in the hydrogen atoms remains in the star in that helium atom. The helium atoms that are produced in that way can also fuse into heavier atoms and this process can continue up to iron. Iron and the atoms that are heavier than that are too close to the center most stable point in the atomic scale to be able to fuse because it would actually take the addition of more energy to cause them to fuse than would be freed in the fusion reaction. When all of the lower elements have been fused, the end result is that most of the matter that was in those lighter elements, is now stored in the new midrange atoms that have been produced. If you could somehow cause all of the matter that had been converted to energy to convert back into hydrogen matter and if that amount of hydrogen matter was equal to the amount that was originally present, then you would have all of the original hydrogen plus all of the newly produced midrange atoms that were produced by the fusion process, which would mean that there would be an increase in the total amount of matter in the universe created from nothing. ...............
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Thank you very much for nice thinking and trying to analyze this model.
As you have nicely mentioned here, matter will be formed from energy only it is not from nothing. No matter will be formed from nothing in Dynamic Universe Model; the energy will change its form from one state to another only. The fusion and fission reactions will happen according to Atomic physics. If there are some good unsolved problems we can try together. Lets discuss ...................
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In your theory you say "This is a nonexpanding universe and matter need not be created to keep the density constant". ...............
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Yes, matter need not be created. Universe converts energy into matter and matter will be converted to energy in a cycle. The Universe can be expanding or contracting depends on the overall status of the dynamical forces that are moving different bodies in different ways. Each body movement will depend on UGF (Universal Gravitational Force) acting on it at that moment at that position, which changes dynamically......................
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In this nonexpanding universe the continual increase in the amount of matter that would be created in the form of these newly created midrange atoms would continually increase the matter density of the universe. It would ultimately fill up all of the empty space with this matter and the functioning of the universe would likely break down long before that point................
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No no no, not that way. Overall energy will remain same.
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There is only one way that you could get what you want and that would be to somehow break down all of those new midrange atoms back into hydrogen atoms, but that would be a transformation that would be contrary to entropy because they contain less energy that could be freed by the conversion process than the conversion process would consume. This would mean that extra external energy would need to be provided that was more than had been freed as energy radiation from the fusion processes that caused the generation of the midrange atoms in the first place. This is because you would have to add back all of the energy that had been freed by the fusion process in order to restore the extra energy that the hydrogen atoms require that is greater than what the midrange atoms require, which is just the amount that had been freed by the fusion process. ...............
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This is what exactly happens in SUN and Stars, matter will be converted to energy
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You would then still need to add an additional amount of energy that would be needed to cause the process to operate in the direction contrary to the natural entropy direction of flow of energy. The additional energy that you would need would have to come from somewhere in the universe and it would eventually be used up. The universe would still run down and cease to function. ...............
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No sir, not that way, the energy balance will be maintained
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What would actually happen, however, is that most of the energy that had been freed by the fusion process would be scattered throughout empty space and would not be converted back into hydrogen. ...............
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I got this similar doubt initially about 25 years back when I was working out with this model. What I found in my simulations is different. Probably those sets of Simulations were not published.
What I actually found was astounding. That electromagnetic photon was that was radiated out was pulled back into Universe. I checked the case when the radiation was radially out from the center of the Universe. Then also this radiation came back. Then I was satisfied and started telling the world about this model
That is one of the foundational points of Dynamic Universe Model; Ours is closed universe, no engr goes out.
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The matter density of the universe would then remain the same, but all of the hydrogen and the other lower elements that can fuse would eventually be converted into the midrange elements that can't fuse and the stars would all go out. There is just too much empty space for the energy photons to disperse into and too few very large masses that would generate very large and strong gravity fields to in any way convert the photons back into matter particles to allow any very large percentage of them to be converted back into matter. I know that is not what you want to hear, but I believe that if you look at energy photon dispersion in open space per unit of distance from the source, etc. and analyze the percentage of the total space in the universe that contains the strong enough gravity fields to do the conversions, you will find that I am right about it. In addition you would need to consider all of the energy photons that strike objects in the universe, such as those that interact with atoms on the earth and are either completely absorbed or experience frequency decreases as a result of giving up some energy to an electron in an atom, etc. ...............
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No,no,no... Not that way... Dynamic Universe model don't say that way. I hope I cleared all your questions and doubts.....
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Much of the rest of your theory is good, however, except as pointed out earlier. ...............
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Thank you very much for the nice study of Dynamic Universe Model. Thank you for your time you spend on this model. THANK YOU FOR THE NICE COMPLEMENTS......
I hope I cleared them all YOUR DOUBTS, if you have any further doubts, lets discuss ...
Best regards
=snp.gupta
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Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Mar. 6, 2017 @ 01:44 GMT
Dear Paul,
I also observed this problem of Logging out many times; this feature needs correction by FQXi software group...
Probably we have to communicate them....
Best
=snp.gupta
My comment to Satyavarapu on his paper's page:
Dear Satyavarapu,
I don't think that you understand what I am trying to say to you, so I will try using a different approach. For the most part, fusion does not actually change matter particles into energy photons. In a new star that has not converted much hydrogen into higher elements; the star is mostly composed of hydrogen. A basic hydrogen atom contains one proton and one electron. ...
Dear Satyavarapu,
I don't think that you understand what I am trying to say to you, so I will try using a different approach. For the most part, fusion does not actually change matter particles into energy photons. In a new star that has not converted much hydrogen into higher elements; the star is mostly composed of hydrogen. A basic hydrogen atom contains one proton and one electron. In the star the temperature is high enough to convert the atoms into plasma. Plasma is atoms with the electrons stripped off of them. This means that the star contains free protons and free electrons. The first reaction is that two protons come together to form a nucleus. One of the protons decays into a neutron and a positron and neutrino which are both matter particles are given off as part of the process. This creates a deuterium atom, which is just a hydrogen atom that contains a neutron. Notice that we started off with two matter particles and still have two matter particles. We have just changed from two atoms to one atom. The energy that it takes to bind two particles together into one atom is less than the energy required for the two separate atoms, so some energy is released, but some of it goes into the neutron because it has a greater mass than the input proton had, some goes into the neutrino, which would usually completely leave the star because they do not interact very much and are extremely low in mass, and some would go into the production of the positron, which would interact in a short time with one of the electrons in the plasma and they would both be converted into photon energy (a total of about 1Mev or million electron volts). The only part of the released energy that did not come from the freed up binding energy was the ½Mev that came from the conversion of the electron into photon energy. The next step is that the deuterium atom joins with another proton to form a Helium atom with just 1 neutron. A gamma ray energy photon is also given off because the energy required to bind the single Helium atom together is less than the energy of the separate proton and the deuterium atom combined. This gamma ray contains about 4Mev and comes completely from the savings in binding energy. The next step is for 2 of the above helium atoms to join together to produce a helium atom with 2 neutrons. The 2 extra protons are ejected. The protons carry off most of the freed binding energy about 15 to 20Mev in the form of kinetic energy or their motion. Notice that in the whole process the only matter particles that were converted into energy photons were the 2 electrons for a total of about 1Mev. All of the rest of the energy that was freed was from the lower amount of binding energy that is needed by the larger single atom than was required by the several individual atoms. None of the hydrogen protons are converted into energy photons. The whole fusion reaction to generate a helium atom freed up roughly 60Mev. If just one proton was converted to an energy photon it would free up over 938Mev. You can see that the idea that the hydrogen atoms have been converted into energy photons and the energy photons would then be converted back into hydrogen atoms is completely false. Instead many hydrogen atoms have been combined together into fewer heavier atoms freeing up a small amount of energy in the process because the fewer heavier atoms require less total binding energy than the many more lighter hydrogen atoms required. For the most part, all of the matter is still there in the star it has just been compacted. It actually takes 4 hydrogen atoms (protons) to produce 1 helium atom. 2 of them are needed just as they are in the helium atom and the other 2 are converted into neutrons. The 4 protons contain a total of about 3753Mev. The fusion reaction only freed up about 60MEV. Are you saying that a 60Mev energy photon is somehow converted up in frequency until it is up to 3753Mev and then is converted into 4 protons somehow? This would mean multiplying its energy by about 63 times. That certainly would not be energy conservation. If that were to somehow happen you could get all of the original hydrogen back, but you would still also have the original 4 protons locked up in the helium atom in the star. This would effectively mean that you would have doubled the amount of matter. The problem is that it is not a cycle of changing matter particles to energy photons and then changing the energy photons back into matter particles. You are not seeing that the hydrogen atoms are not really being converted into energy photons. They are just being compacted into heavier atoms and only the savings in the required amount of binding energy is being radiated in energy photons. All of the hydrogen's matter particles are still in the star except for a few electrons. I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Paul