Georgi,

Overall, we differ on the Nature of Time. No surprise there, Time seems to be a very personal persuasion and as individual as humanity.

I can't exactly pinpoint why, but I have always come away from your writings with the distinct sense that you personally regard Time as being One Thing described in a number of ways. Whereas I see those various descriptions as being foundationally distinct dimensions, both linear and non-linear coexisting to varying degrees. I do not hold with the notion that Time or Space emerges from motion in nothingness which commits the rhetorical fallacy of Omission. It omits that there would need be some reference for a distance or a velocity to be 'beable'. Nor do I agree with the idea that how we experience Time as if it permeates everything in a ceaseless metronomic cadence which we call intervals of one or some nth of a second, and which otherwise has no effect on any entity moving through it as it permeates the entity in motion. Simple connectivity throughout SpaceTime is foundational to my thinking, and EMR is emergent from power fluctuations in physical fields volumes which can exchange energy through simple field density difference. So all along I have found your arguments being reliant on signal emission and absorption, very similar to arguments in the QM concordance of the cosmological standard model of particle physics. To which I always inquire, "what is a particle?' Onward! through the fog! :-) jrc

John,

Thank you for responding. I was hoping for evaluation of the specific arguments I had just posted- rather than something general. About that, I don't think time is just one thing. 'Time' has many distinct meanings. Time t measured, perceived passage of time, changing universal configurations, becoming, that I call foundational time, the concept of the time dimension of spacetime, and the time dimension of observation products are all very different (though the ideas are 'related' in some way). Distance and velocity are relative measurements. Relevant to observation products but not necessary for unmeasured motion of an existing beable. I've not suggested motion in nothingness; far from it. I'd really appreciate it if you would read my posts of 21st and 22nd, and then tell me what you think of those specific arguments.

Sorry, Georgina,

I have had a busy summer and am racing the change of season getting cleaning and outdoor rid-up done before foul weather. So I can indulge is some discussion but not in great depth. Pardon me.

I quite agree that what we perceive from sensory input of signals (EMR) is not the reality of existential structures, where we disagree is that in GR, spacetime evolves structure. I do think that many writing about Relativity do abbreviate the fuller context and that is what most readers get. I've never felt that the old saw that goes "Mass tells space how to curve and curved space tells mass how to move" really fills the bill. So I can agree with you to that extent. However, quite apart from Einstein employing (in part) Riemann"s spherical geometry, We differ in that I hold that an overabundance of energy in a supersaturate universe naturally condenses matter to conserve space and hence space does compact (quantum gravity) and a physical curvature results which makes time as measured on a straight line of gravitational fall (Newton's apple) non-linear. That may effectively produce 'more work' for a timepiece with the differing clock time results for common kinds of clock, but the phenomenal extended working output of radioisotopic electrical modules on deep space probes (Voyager I & II ) argues physically that gravity doesn't simply make a clock run slower due to working against gravitational attraction. And those extended outputs mirror what we can deduce from the current census estimate of surviving radioactive isotopes on and in the Earth. If gravity simply makes clocks work harder, rather than the rate of Time slowing in a gravitational well, then those radioisotope decays would speed up in deepspace. We wouldn't have the statistical abundance of daughter radioisotopes left by the time the earth began forming. The heat output in radiological thermopile modules on deep space probes would fall as the half-life decay rates speeded up and the electrical output would fall below nominal. Exactly the opposite occurs. The designed output curve has roughly held so little or no change has occurred in the rate of half-life decay, but the active working life of the radiologic generators has exceeded expectancy of working life in earth's gravity by a factor of three. The rate of Time is predictively faster in lower gravitational domains. It doesn't produce a different work function for the Plutonium, its just on board a spacecraft out in space where Time goes much faster than here on Earth. So, No, I disagree with your assessment of Times natural role. It does take a while to wrap your head around how we would get more earth Time results from deep space than if the the radiological generator had remained with its control twin here on earth. best - jrc

Thank you John. What did you think about the questioning whether altitude time comparison is a fair test? I'll think some more on the atomic clocks. You say rate does not (you used the term) "accelerate", I take that to mean here a change in velocity but not ongoing increase. Yet later you say time is going much faster in space. But a faster rate gives the appearance of time passing faster. Is it that a faster clock operating rate makes it seem time is passing faster (rhetorical). Then using that resultant faster time rate (output) for timing the process that leads to time setting. So the combination does not show the change that has happened.

9 days later

Time itself is a superfluous concept. Time is either, bound to the material-spatial configuration of the Object universe, being the temporal expression of it. Or time is emergent from sensory signal processing. The observation product possesses a time dimension. That is related to the varied material configurations of origin of the input signals, from which it is generated.

Clock time, what a clock shows, is related to the two kinds of time mentioned. The material configuration of the clock is a part of the material configuration of the object universe. The seen clock is a product of electromagnetic signal processing.'

I think this is clearer. What do you think?

    I think 'spatial' may be the wrong word to use. I want to emphasize that the configuration is not just material but that the relations of parts is important. Maybe the word configuration already has that covered.

    In an enzyme for example form is necessary for function, Not just shape but where there are charges...

    Perhaps 'material configuration and relations of parts within' is better.

    Space-Oxford languages

    '1.a continuous area or expanse which is free, available, or unoccupied.'

    '2.The dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.' I don't think having material distributed in an empty background is as important as how its arranged in relation to other material, charges, fields, EM radiation; or its parts. 2. sounds as if it may be applicable . Though there is no differentiation here of what exists and what is seen as things in space. I think it may be more about mapping than independent existence. Dimension 1.'a measurable extent of a particular kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height'. Oxford languages. I think it may be enough that existence is distributed? Do we really need to say it is distributed in space as a foundational premise? Or is space, the concept of it, superfluous at that level too?'

    8 days later

    video-Examining the Light clock argument, uploaded to YouTube today.

    https://youtu.be/G4KKILRT5QE

    Examining the Light clock argument

    Important new perspective on this classic. Sets out the Light clock thought experiment, with simple diagrams. Then using a new explanatory framework, what would be happening inside the material clock (Object reality)) is separated from what is seen (Image reality). Explains why the speed of light on a speeding train is just still the speed of light.

    Hi Georgina! I suspect you are using non-standard terminology. So no matter how right you are, that makes it almost impossible, unfortunately, to see what you are actually saying.

    Vesuvius Now, thank you so much for watching and your feedback. I will make a note on the Light clock video's page , to watch 'Two kinds of time' first if unfamiliar with my explanatory framework.

    Two kinds of time sets out the main components and terminology. Object reality pertains tp uni-temporal, material, existing reality - no time dimension; related to Foundational time. Image reality pertains to products of 'sensory' signal receipt and processing; related to Emergent time.

    In the light clock video: First the clock and conventional analysis is set out. Then Object reality, what happens in the material clock itself is considered. Then what is observed, Image reality and why. The tyre mark on moving wheel clearly explains why, in material reality cycle distance and translation must be treated separately. If there are specific things that are still confusing please ask.

    Vesuvius Now,

    I assumed you had seen the video, not just assumed it would be incomprehensible. Its only about 7 or about minutes long and I think works quite well as a stand alone comparison of standard analysis and alterative. There is one slide shown briefly where I try to explain foundational time, which is perhaps out of place and perhaps puzzling if never encountered before. Interesting outcome of the alternative analysis , is that the moving clock itself should not run slow. And with alternative framework time can not actually be going at different rates in different places in material realty. So there has to be a material reason, which could become another video. I mention in two kinds of time that clock timing is Proper time not foundational time. I'm making a video setting out the meanings of temporal terms, as required by the alternative framework. They are not premises but consequences.

    The two kinds of time are 1. foundational; change in the existing, material configuration of the Object universe (Not the visible/observable universe but all that materially co-exists (present tense). 2. Emergent time. The sequence of Presents of an observer generated from signal receipt and processing.

    The timing of a clock is different again. The clock generates and counts a particular kind of event. The rate of counting the events is not the rate of passage of Foundational time but the rate of distribution of the counted events within Object reality ( pertaining to the Object universe). That rate is the same as will be observed by a co-moving or co-stationary observer at the location of the clock.

    a month later

    Animal Panorama Fails That Are So Bad They're Good

    YouTube video https://youtu.be/7JyslWXH7zQ

    Camera observer is moved ,rotated horizontally. Information obtained from EMR input, obtained at different times and observer locations, is "stitched' slice-wise together.

    Demonstrates-

    The 'animal' product has not and does not materially exist as an animal.

    The 'animal" product is a manifestation generated by the camera observer.

    If the source of EMR input moves during collection it affects the product generated (using this technique). Product generated by camera observer using information obtained from EMR input.

      The 'stitching' together of different times and locations makes me think about images of massive tilted galaxies. These structures can be very many light years in diameter. The EMR from the furthest away portion will have taken many light years of travel prior to emission of the EMR from the nearest to observer part of the galaxy, if they are to be received together. In which case does the product deserve to be called [image of] an object. When it has never existed at one time as seen. It is often said that looking 'out into' space is like looking back in time. But what is seen is an amalgamation of received information from EMR emitted at different times. A material 4D object will be/is, or ought to be, all that it is at each time rather than partially at many different times as the manifestation produced by the observing equipment. That's the relevance of the panoramic animals. Thoughts?

      If I think of myself as I'd be as a four dimensional object; spanning my growth, development and aging: At any place along the time dimension I am a whole 3D object. Part of the 4D object. I am not a slice of a 3D object. The tilted galaxy image is not the galaxy as it was at any time but a 2d image of a composite 3D appearance. The image formed from received signals is a new product.

      A better premise than the existence of the material Object universe,-Now, would be that material existence does not have a time dimension. From which comes the proposition of the Object universe. Rather than the binary choice of presentism or eternalism, there can be material existence without time dimension and observation products with a time dimension, due to differences in signal transmission time, from material source to observer..