Deciding on the nature of time and space by Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thank-you Ed,

I've downloaded the paper and will give it a couple reads. I don't argue against anyone's treatment of Time. It's too personally precious to everyone whether they admit it or not :-), and I've had some success modeling a unitary field in 3D+T myself as a condensate of a primordial field. Where I find time dilation convenient is that in treating the rate of passage of time as a range of velocity itself, limiting at C, is that if time is propagating at C the the field energy can reach a finite limit spatial boundary because it need not, nor could not continue to expand (to infinity?) at any additional velocity through space. Its handy! But in theoretics, what is necessary is that the theory constructed meets the rigors of accepted and/or proven observations. The sticking point for Time in any scenario is "How can we know how fast time flies?" One second per second is a meaaningless tautology. Einstein skipped right over that elephant in the room in SR, the speed of time is an ambiguous universal stasis in both reference frames and only the Lorentz Transform then gives the difference between points of observation. Is the speed of time on earth a coefficient of escape velocity? Good Luck with your efforts and best wishes, jrc

It's my pleasure to play! And your essay is an excellent playground, so thanks for the opportunity Edwin, much appreciated.

"The universe is conscious, but the awareness does not come from the equations. It comes from the primordial field evolving to where we are today. You're living it. You'll never get an explanation that produces awareness, it's there to start with. You might find this frustrating. I think it's great. Enjoy it!"

Again, I concur, and am never frustrated but rather have only ever enjoyed fundamental ontology! And yes, you, me, and the pan-psychists all agree that the universe is conscious and that we just have to posit consciousness as a fundamental physical property ... which also means we need to rethink what the physical in physicalism means, but probably only if you care about the current (deplorable) state of the philosophy of science. And I definitely think your primordial C-field is a better way to go for the reasons I gave above.

However, as for your contention that we are incapable of discovering what or how 'conscious awareness' is or arises, simply because 'we are it' therefore it's a fundamentally unknowable fundamental property and we should just leave it at that ... well that contention would depend on how you might define the term 'consciousness' ... which (perhaps annoyingly) is where the philosophy of mind starts.

And if you care about the philosophy of mind then just positing 'C' as a fundamental property attached to a primordial gravitational field doesn't answer what it is that is being attached. If we refuse to define what C is then how do you define what a C-field is, or how it interacts with gravity, matter, and the generation of (3+1)D patterns via our neuronal processes? Do you even need to posit C for your (3+1)D neuronal mass flow theory to function?

Otherwise, what is 'C' such that it can be a primordial property of a C-field?

Dear Edwin,

"There is no problem with the math of the Lorentz transformation;

the problem is in the ontology, i.e., the nature of physical reality."

I have written that there is a mathematical problem with the derivation of the Lorentz transformations. I can take correction. Here is why I have said the above: I wrote:

The Improper 'Derivation' of the Lorentz Transforms by Einstein

Excerpt:

In order to make the clearest case for how the mathematics is carried out, I will use the common simplified example of the light source and the two observers all being located at the same point before any activity occurs. At the start of the activity two things happen. One observer leaves the initial point with a relative velocity with respect to that original point called the origin and moving horizontally to its right.. At the same instant the the moving observer begins to move, a light pulse is sent out from the origin in all directions and equal distance.

There are a few more assumptions included in the derivation. It is assumed that these new transforms will not apply to length in the orthogonal directions. It is also assumed that time is not to be treated as unidirectional, which leaves it being omnidirectional. In other words, Equations for the vertical directions, if they include 't', for example velocity, may need transformation. I mention this because the derivation will be made for the horizontal direction to the right as if it is one dimensional. However, the handling of 't' gives it a simultaneous three dimensional treatment.

There is an origin where both observers and the light source wait for the action to begin. At the same time One observer leaves the origin with a velocity v and moves horizontally to the right. Simultaneously, a bubble of light is released from the origin and moves away from the origin at the speed of light.

Part of the wave front travels along the same path that the moving observer is on. It speeds on ahead of him in the same horizontal direction to the right. Both observers see that same wave front. Both observers measure the speed of that wave front with respect to themselves. They both measure the speed of it as C.

For the stationary observer, the speed of the light presents no surprise. However, for the moving observer, it is expected that the speed of light will measure less than C by the velocity of the observer. That does not happen. Regardless of the magnitude of v, the moving observer measures the speed of light moving ahead of him as traveling at the speed C.

There is a mathematical step coming up that I haven't seen in a long time, but, it bothered me as being mathematically unwarranted from the first time I saw it done. In the early part of the derivation of the Lorentz transforms, the observers write their equations for their measurement of the speed of light. The distance between themselves and the leading edge of the light is simply the application of the Pythagorean theorem. That measurement is divided by time t1 for the stationary observer and t2 for the moving observer.

This is not the problem that I mentioned and will be getting to next. However, this part assumes that time may be different for each observer. This assumption is leading the solution toward time-dilation. We don't have that solution yet, but by providing for its possibility in the mathematics makes the mathematics 'look' for it. In other words, whether it is correct or not, if there is a mathematical way of expressing it using what is in the setup of the equations, it can be expected to appear as part of the result.

Now for the problem I have been leading up to. There are two equations for the measured speed of light from the perspective of each observer. The expressions consist of the distance written in the form of the Pythagorean theorem divided by the time. Time t1 for the fixed observer, and, time t2 for the moving observer. They both measure the speed of light as C, so the distance divided by the time is set equal to C. Nothing wrong there yet. Measured velocity equals C. This can be written as Measured velocity -C equals zero. We have measured velocity 1 minus C equals zero. We also have measured velocity 2 minus C equals zero.

The problem is the very next step. We have two equations set equal to zero. Since zero equals zero, the two equations are set equal to each other. The problem has appeared. Any equation can be written with everything on the left side and zero on the right side of the equals sign. Any two equations can be set equal to one another in this manner. There is nothing about this practice that seems justified. I can write any number of nonsensical equations by writing them so that they are equal to zero and then setting them equal to any other equation prepared in the same way.

I mentioned earlier about putting the assumption that there could be two different rates of clock time into the equations gives direction to the mathematics that if it is possible for a solution to include two rates of time, to find that solution. Here in the problem just explained. setting two equations equal to one another just because they are written as both being equal to zero, appears to again give direction to the mathematics to find, if possible, an expected or anticipated solution. I see the mathematics being manipulated to head toward a particular kind of solution.

It could be that the solution will be the one that does best fit with physical reality. I don't see it that way because one of the solutions is that there are different rates of time simultaneously. I find no direct empirical evidence to support the solution called time-dilation. It may be that the speed of light varies, which seems far more physically reasonable to me. Many relativity type of effects can be accounted for by a remote perspective of a varying the speed of light instead a varying speed of time for each observer. There is a challenge in trying a new method of solution. This mainstream simple example used to achieve the Lorentz transforms is appears to physicists as a reasonable problem to solve.

It needs to be shown that an undirected solution, as opposed to the mainstream solution which gives some appearance of having been mathematically directed toward a solution, doesn't present us with a varying speed of light, then there is a conflict with the idea that the speed of light varies.

A derivation of the Lorentz transforms is at this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation

The equation that I spoke about where two separate equations were set to zero and then set equal to each other is the first equation on the equation line D3.

Getting back to the simple problem that is being solved. Going any further with the mainstream mathematics is not really worth it. There are several mathematical steps that need to be done. And, there is a lot of explaining the needs to be done. However, the Lorentz transforms are the solutions to that problem and, physicists have been using them for a hundred years, and like them. So the list of the Lorentz transforms is really all that most users need to know. Here is an introductory video about Special Relativity, using easy math:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjJwnsc4D40

With regard to maybe there being an alternative solution to the mainstream example problem; one can just use normal length and normal time keeping and the solution is that they will measure the speed of light to be different. Maybe the speed of light does vary, but it doesn't vary in that way. It is the case that all observers will measure the speed of light to be C when measured locally. Measured locally means that the equipment used to measure the speed of light experiences the same environment conditions as does the light who's speed is being measured. So, it looks like I need to consider a possible third solution.

I am looking to generate a better example problem that, after setting up the initial conditions, the mathematics will provide its own non-directed solution. I will include a few more paragraphs for the purpose of showing you what my thoughts are.

Here is a different problem: There are again two observers. They are in different environments. For observer #1 there is a beam of light coming toward him and beginning to pass him. Observer two is experiencing the same problem but is not located with observer #1. The environmental conditions are such that the light passing by observer #! is moving faster than the light beam that is passing by observer #2.

Each observer sees the beam passing by them and the beam passing by the other observer. The beams are traveling horizontally in the same direction. Observer #1 is located high above observer #2. Observer #1 measure the speed of the light passing by him and finds that it is traveling at the speed of C. Observer #2 does the same and finds that the speed of the light passing by him is C.

Observer #1 looks at the light passing by observer #2 and finds that its speed is substantially less than C. Observer #2 looks at the light .passing by observer #1 and finds that its speed is greater than C. Each observer used their own meter stick and clock located next to them. They don't see anything out of the ordinary when they measure the speed of the light passing by themselves. However, they measure each other's speed of light very differently. This finding does tell us something important. Their meter sticks for sure are not the same length. The difference in the lengths of their meter sticks should be enough to account for the differences in measurements of their own passing light and that of the other observer.

However, there is something about their two environments which changed the length of their meter sticks. Does it also affect the speed of light or perhaps the rates that their clocks tick at? The meter sticks don't answer that question. They may vary linearly or maybe not. What we do know is that the Lorentz transforms have been working and they are not linear. This example problem may have different solutions from the Lorentz transforms, but the results must be nonlinear and probably will look analogous to the Lorentz transforms.

Returning to the questionable mathematics of the 'derivation' of the Lorentz Transforms. I think that the two odd looking mathematical steps are unwarranted but they are both necessary because they are what lead to the time-dilation equation. It is a forced result. The inclusion, in the set up of the original math conditions, of a term that prepares the way for time to be transformed will not result in time dilation if the mathematics that follows is completed with normal mathematical steps.

Normal mathematical steps would not include the process of setting up the two equations where everything is moved to the left side of the equals sign resulting in each equation being set equal to zero. Then the illogical looking step of setting the two equations equal to one another simply because zero equals zero saves the derivation so that time dilation can appear in the results.

A normal mathematical step would have divided both equations by C with Ct in each denominator. Both equations would have been equal to one. Setting them equal to each other would have been a natural mathematical step. However. Ct would have been in the denominators of both equations. By moving all terms to one side of each equation and setting them equal to zero and then equal to one another, the product of speed of light C and t was not in the denominators by rather appears as a subtracted term in both numerators. This is obviously a cheat step that was necessary for the solution to include time dilation.

End of excerpt.

James

Hello Edwin...

I consider GEOMETRY, as a discrete language of graphic primitives, to be the most descriptive and universal language branch of maths, and I greatly enjoyed your utilization of graphic primitives...i.e. cartoons... to expose imprecise mental constructs that are constraining perceptions of Reality.

Obviously "relative" to the train station observer, the combined railcar speed @ .9c and the kiddie car speed @ .9c exceeds the maximum speed of light as c, but glass railcar walls do not facilitate our ability to know whether a system internal, "self aware" entity can perceive speed in excess of c?

I recently read Stephen Wolfram's "Finally we may have a path to the fundamental theory of physics and its beautiful", and in Feynman tradition he skillfully employs graphic primitives... i.e. causal graph foliation angle of 45 degs.. to explain why an observer can not go "faster than light", but as you demonstrate in your analysis of professor Susskind's? graphic presentation of "relativity, geometries that are inconsistent with reality can be convincing.

To say, as Stephen does, "to make our observer go "faster than light", we can see that can't work" is not the same as to conclude that a physical entity cannot be made to travel in excess of c, with respect to an observer... i.e. one can NOT know whether the kiddie car @ .1c would disappear from the train station observer's visual perception range.

Stephen's graphic analysis infers an "elementary length" of 10-93 meters, which he makes note, is "very small compared to the Planck length ~10-35 meters that arises essentially from dimensional analysis", and in that Lorentz invariance is only verified down to the scale of the Planck length, the reality sampling rate range of a "self aware" entity is not a verifiable constant.

That is to say that even if perception of a maximum distance/time can be shown by Stephens's graphic presentation, to be "relative" to the sampling rate range of a "self aware" entity, we still can NOT establish a "self aware" entity's visual perception range relative to the speed of light c.

Ontology mandalas have a very long history... i.e. are rumored to have been drawn as sand paintings on cave floors... and I agree with you Edwin, that it is essential that "One must make metaphysical choice commitments to ontology", and deductions derivable from one's ontology must be consistent with Reality.

That being the case, I have for over 20 years based my ontology GEOMETRY on the structural GEOMETRY that emerges from a spatial singularity encapsulating a minimum/indivisible temporal quanta (QT) pulsed Point Source emission, of a directionally unbiased distribution of Space-Time Energy, as minimum/indivisible spatially defined quanta (QE).

REF: Unified Quantization of a Sphere (UQS) http://www.uqsmatrixmechanix.com/UQSOSE.jpg

In that Stephen's work provides foundation for a QT, c value much greater than c as currently consistent with Planck's constant, discrete 3D Space, and spatially defined Energy quanta, I am encouraged in my ontological commitment.

I also agree with Stephen that a fundamental rule underlies the ontology of Reality, but analysis of 2D graphs that represent an isolated sample range of 3D Reality is inherently perturbative... i.e. not conducive to investigation of a fundamental rule for 3D Space... and Stephen runs up against age old "something from nothing" model rejection criteria... i.e. "the Universe had input at very beginning".

Historically, one's ontology not only requires a fundamental rule for its spatial GEOMETRY, but also a compatible fundamental rule for emergence of its dynamics.

That being the case, my ontological fundamental EMISSION rule for a QT pulsed, single Point Source QE emission, within a unified minimum/indivisible spatial unit (QI) quantization GEOMETRY, is the requirement for resolve of spontaneous, harmonious QE/QI distribution throughout the entire system on each pulse (QT), by an emerging networked intelligence whose root architecture is the unified unit quantization of the Space, as defined by the UQS spatial singularity... i.e." a consciousness field that is self-aware and capable of interacting with matter".

REF:UQS Directionally Unbiased Point Source QE Emission) www.uqsmatrixmechanix.com/UQST-TVNH.php

As you have demonstrated, graphic primitives are still interpretive, but animated spatially defined Energy icons... e.g. QE... within a digital CAD environment... i.e. SIMs... can verify interpretations are consistent with Reality, and visually enhance cognitive leaps required for application of fundamental principles.

REF: - Topic: "Modeling Universal Intelligence" by Sue Lingo

or as an .html document "Modeling Universal Intelligence" by Sue Lingo

Yes, 10 years of FQXi open submission essay contests have facilitated exposure to the diversity of individual ontological models, but the field of Reality consistent models seems tp be narrowing...i.e. the search for a fundamental principle is being served.

Thanks Edwin, for your contribution to perceptual clarity... and I a looking forward to reading your "Recent papers [1,2,3] discuss century-old issues associated with the ontological problem".

Sue Lingo

UQS Author/Logician

www.uqsmatrixmechanix.com

Hello Edwin...

My bad!!

The text in above comment reads: ... c value much greater than c as currently consistent with Planck's constant...

It should read: ... a quantum of action much smaller than currently consistent with Planck's quantum of action

sl

Hello Professor Klingman,

I thought about your quantum field of consciousness, I have thought a lot also about this consciousness. In the past I considered that this consciousness is an emergent propertt due to evolution of biological Brains but after a deeper analyse I see differently and I consider that all is conscious probably. Because I consider that the main energy beyond this physicality is an infinite eternal consciousness and in my model this energy is transformed in energy and matters from the central cosmological sphere. I consider so like I told you 3 main finite series of 3D coded spheres, one for the space and two others for the fuels , photons and cold dark matter and when they merge they create our topologies, geometries, properties of matters with fields and particles. So I consider that all is made of particles and not fields, but I understand your model probably correlated with the strings and the fields and this 1D main field , or geonetrodynamics. I see just differently considering a kind of gravitational primoridal aether , this space is coded and from this eternal consciousness. We search answers to this universal puzzle, and I beleive that this consciousness is the main source , like main energy. This energy after in being transformed and coded create our physicality, so we can indeed consider that all is conscious at its level of conscious, probably that the number of particles encoded is proportional with the consciousness and the evolution is important also. It is complex to encircle all this, but we try to reach these unknowns. the big difference in my model of spherisation and these 3D coded spheres is about the main essence, I consider particles coded but we can converge at my humble opinion with the fields. The particles for me are more foundamental, the fields are just a resuslts of contact and encodings of these 2 fuels that I have explained made of coded spheres.

Friendly

My pleasure, Ed,

I'm not much for partisan warfare either. And as you say its too complex to cover in an essay or casual exchanges such as this.

I'll look into your ref:17 but would expect it to balance with the concept in 3D+T of energy condensing to matter within a prescribed full field volume as a function of energy decelerating (negative acceleration) and continuously compounding towards a self gravitational center. Hence; the clock also slows in response to greater energy density. Colloquially one could say that there exists 'more energy in density to transit through' and the clock ticks along at a rate that reflects that increasing density. Mathematically it is very doable, and allows for using earth time as a benchmark for the clock rate.

There has got to be more than one way to skin Schrodinger's Cat. I'll let you go for now, best as always jrc

Thanks Professor Klingman,

The convergences are important at my humble opinion. I understand about this consciousness that in the past it was not easy to discuss about this. Probably that the modern theoretical physics are more open to discuss about it. It is the same with the main origin of this universe, I know that the sciences Community is divided , a part considers that we come from nothing or by a kind of accident from an heat energy , the others consider a kind of creator with oscillations or fields like the strings theorists, or me and my particles 3D spheres coded , but we must recognise that we cannot affirm in fact, we have limitations, philosophical, mathematical, physical, we can just imagine, have intuitions. It is beyond our simple human understanding. But the universe and what we know actually can show us the roads, I see spheres everywhere lol, for me it is the choice of this universe , they seem foundamental, why I don t know really , but when I see the nature, we see them, the spheres, spheroids, ellipsoids....I consider in my model the deformations also important for these quantum 3D spheres, like an intrinsic Ricci flow in function of codes in these series, the other Tools that I utilise to formalise these 3D spheres are the Hamilton Ricci flow, the topological and euclidian spaces, the lie derivatives, lie groups, lie algebras, the Clifford algebras ,the poincare conjecture ...it is not easy this formalisation but I evolve each Days. I have invented an assymetric Ricci flow also to explain the unique things , maybe in the smaller spherical volumes of these primordial finite series having the same number finite than our cosmological finite serie of Spheres. This number is important and the space disappears when we apply a decreasing of volumes and increasing of number from the central biggest sphere. I beleive strongly that this universe generally is simple, the details complex but simple in the generality.

A thing important for me even if this sciences Community is divided is that the best past thinkers considered a kind of creator, like Einstein who thought in a god of spinoza, I see a Little bit like that in respecting this determinism, we can have faith and respect the pure determinism of our reality. Here is the list of these thinkers who considered a kind of conscious infinite creator, Einstein who said that God does not play at Dices, Planck, Tesla, Newton, Heisenberg, Maxwell,Galilei, Lie, Godel, Cantor, Rieman, Poincare, Lorentz, Fermi and so more , it seems that when we study the generality of sciences and search answers in philosophy and sciences , this truth that we cannot define appears like evident, we need something to code, transform this Energy. I respect the thinkers who don t consider this but I beleive that without this parameter, infinite potential, it is more difficult to encircle these transformations matters energy.

ps lol thanks for my English, I don t learn it but I have improved it with the time in Reading and translating , I must imporve my grammar, so I will buy a book.

Friendly

Dear Edwin,

Thank you for evaluating what I wrote about the derivation of the Lorentz transforms. I was rereading my message about an hour ago. That excerpt was from a ma reply I wrote to someone who requested my view. I think what i wrote should be rewritten for future use; however, what amazes me most is how very often when rereading my posts, I see obvious typos and worse. I do write a lot and am very active on the Internet; but that is not an excuse. Sloppy work weakens the communication. I apologize for posting that message without first proofreading it.

In appreciation,

James

P.S. I was Jim until I joined the Internet in 2001. I used my formal name James. Reading James felt odd, even maybe uncomfortable. However, 19 years have passed and I have comfortably become James. Now Jim seems odd to me.

Dear Ed,

I see typos in my message here. I think that I am paying a price for not wearing reading glasses. Clearly I need to. Thanks again. I will read some of these other essays for a while with reading glasses on.

James

Hello,

It is exactly what I beleive about the origin of this universe and a kind of deeper logic Before this BB and inflation, this infinite eternal conscious , this energy that we cannot define has concentrated in a sphere , the central cosnological sphere and after transform and codes this energy in matters energy and create motions, oscillations and so create this universe in expansion in distributing the particles coded. That continues fruthermore, this conscious energy continues to code and transform this energy beyond our understanding and create still codes , informations, particles, the evolution seems important, what I find relevant also is that this conscious energy is everywhere but transformed in this central cosmologicsl sphere in my model. It is intriguing philosophically speaking. This balance seems essential, the entropy negentrypo, heat cold, photons cold dark matter, matter anti matter, order disorder, electromagnetism gravitation, we need a balance for the emergences of our reality. The zero total energy can be this balance with heat also and we can see it at zero just due to a difference with the heat and cold and so coming from this energy of consciousness. I asked me a simple philosophical questions, if this thing exists, a kind of God, why it has created this universe ? maybe simply this eternal infinite consciousness was alone and that we create a thing in improvement, the potential is infinite and it gives us an incredible hope considering this Project....It is also the meaning of my theory of spherisation, the optimisation evolution of the universal sphere or future sphere, we are inside a physicality still Young and in improvement...

Regards

Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman!

Thank you for answer. I read your essay and references. I found only the same cause of the problem, which has been creating paradoxes and conundrums for 100 years, i.e., presumption that Lorenz length contraction, time dilatation etc is real.

You wrote: "I believe your paper confuses the Doppler 'apparent length contraction' with Lorentz length contraction."

Answer: Nothing is confused. The Lorenz length contraction, time dilatation etc is apparent. Lorenz transformations are correct and work well. They make it possible to calculate the real value from the measured apparent value or predict the result of measurement at high velocities.

You wrote: "They are paradoxes because the equations are simple, but the ontology is unrealistic."

I agree - the ontology is unrealistic if it is assumed that the measured or observed values are not apparent but real.

Good luck in contest

IlgaitisAttachment #1: Time_Dilatation_Real_or_Apparent.pdf