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Related to this problem, to do with using ( abstract ) nunbers; that are only fixed and unitary when the co-ordiate system or reference frame to which they belong is selected , to describe existential material reality; is what is called the measurement problem of quantum physics,; this at what stage in the theoretical proccess the wave function of an object under consideration colllapses or decoherence actually happens. At which point matter having definite form and location, rather than a superositionof possibilities postulated by the theory.

    Georgina Woodward
    That is the connecion with consciousness., often but not necessarily it is a conscios human organism' s point of veiw that is imposed. THE OBSERVER DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS , they could be a device with circuits or any device capable of coversion of a sensory input to a different product. Which makes it an obsever and not just an object.

        Georgina Woodward
        Lorraine , you keep mentioning numbers jumping, however seem to ignore thw artificil quality of imposing the (artiticial) hypothetical dimensions onto reality. I have endevoured to explain why we choose to impose the dimensions that we do, although the sitiuation given the physical processes and biological processes actually happening is dfifferent Evidence from robot vision can help with this, I think.

            Georgina Woodward
            In anticipation ofd your disapproval; I have made spelling corrections though out recent posts but the changes have not all been accepted. It may be because it was too late to make changes, despite the edit button working to bring up a copy of the text to edit.
            Should be corected to say 'the artificial quality'

                If, unlike George Ellis, one looks at the BIGGER picture, one arrives at a very different view of the world (i.e. the universe).

                In the BIGGER picture, way before there was something describable as “physics” or time or space or matter, something moved and created categories (like energy, mass or position), something moved and created relationships between the categories (i.e. laws of nature), and something moved and created numbers and assigned the numbers to the categories.

                This is what genuine causation is all about: creating the basic elements of the real-world system, e.g. creating new numbers and assigning them to existing categories, just like what happens in quantum events to this day. Genuine causation has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the action/ reaction that is due to existing laws of nature in an existing real-world system; however, George Ellis seems to think that action/ reaction is causation because he doesn't look at a bigger picture of the world.

                One can claim that an external God, or something else external to the world exists (George Ellis seems to think that an external-to-the-world Platonic realm exists), and this external thing has the causal power to create the categories, relationships, and numbers, and assign the numbers to the categories.

                OR, more realistically, one must consider that nothing external to the world exists, and that what actually exists is a world which is a totally self-sufficient type of thing, i.e. the world itself has the causal power to create its own categories, relationships, and numbers, and assign the numbers to the categories.

                Note that this causal power to create CAN’T be explained as being due to the categories, relationships and numbers that were created by the causal power; and so a different set of symbols is required to represent causal power/ free will.

                Georgina Woodward
                For clarity , it is not enogh to choose which viewpoiint,. It must qlso be applie,d to have theoretical wave function collaspse That is to say an outcome must be found.

                  Presumably energy and matter was involved in fomation of the solar system,Whick has SOL and the planets in motion.The first law of thermodynamics says -energy is neither created or destroyred, it just changes form, or type of energy. A universe in motion stays in motion...
                  To keep doing work , that is making change happen, energy is needed and destruction breakdown, decaty, corrosion ,releases energy stored within matter ands structures made of matter ,recycling some of it.
                  If the universe is an isolated system,we do not know, the second law of thermodynamics applies which says that entropy increases applies.
                  Gravity brings matter together,
                  0rganisms work against thE 2nd law ,building up mass and structure of matter in their bodies and things made by them.
                  The Earth has been found to have a climate that has at times nurtured life and at other times hastened its destruction and decay,
                  The web telescope seems to show develoment towards greater complexity rather than entropy increasing in the universe over time.

                  For an fQxi essay competition I wrote 'Universe soup' imagining ingredients of the Universe and what is required to make it. Disregarding the macrosopic content and concentrating instead on the base of the soup, 3 vital contitutents come to mind. The first is energy. But energy alone can't act. Energy produces change or is change or potential for it. It must therfore either act through matter or alter the distribution of the sustance filling what we may sometimes regard as void. For example the co-ordinated movenment of many aligned electrons making a magnetic field, transportation of a photon particle and effects in the double slit experiment, and gravity, the inside of an atom, happenings can all be explained witrhout actionat a distance.

                    Georgina Woodward
                    With energy protons ,neutrons and electons are able to hold together as atoms. The atoms composition gives the elements. These can be brought togthrer to form stuctues, even organisns. The energy, existence in the form of particulate constituents of atoms or substance between, which can not be seen only known by it's effects, is not outside of the material uUniverse but part of it

                        Georgina Woodward
                        Some people may like to associate funamental aspects of the universe with a deity. Energy (the cosmic dancer, who keeps the universe turning by his dancing and destroyer,Shiva) and matter, preserved, maintained, built up, not sucumming to entropy (the material nature of the Universe, Vishnu the preserver) and creation (structure, organisation ) from them (by Brahma, the Creator or by God the father, creator of Heaven and Earth ) within their environment. The immaterial Holy spirit, said to be the Lord the giver of life and he who spoke through the prophets , presumably energizing and inspiring them. Maybe associated with energy itself or unseen substance acting in the Universe.
                        Deities associated with the fundamental characteristics of the Universe are mythological analogies for them, imo.

                          Georgina Woodward
                          EDIT OF EALIER POST;'that is called the measurement problem of quantum physics,; this at what stage in the theoretical proccess the wave function of an object under consideration colllapses or decoherence actually happens. At which point matter having definite form and location, rather than a superosition'
                          i have crossed out the words or decoherence because, this is a term that applies to the hypothetical situation were wave function collapse happens, in particulae circumstances, due to interaction with the environment. I have used the word incorectly as an alternative expression of the term wave function collapse -withsamde ra5ther thandifferrent specific meaning.

                              Georgina Woodward
                              CORRECTED COPY OF EALIER POST
                              'Mathematics is a language. It can be used to describe the position of something,or distance between things, if used with a co-ordinate system or a reference frame. But application ,that is abstract superimposition, of the co-ordinates or referernce frame on the material world. It is not an objective process ; That is what is shown by the different findings for train length found in 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies. Lorraine seems to think that that is higher level psychology, taking that fact into account. As if there is just one true objective measurement that can be made. This mistake is similar to the posititon taken by the ERP challenge to quantum physics.
                              Despite giving us Relativity , Einstein wants a singular predetermined objective reality. SR is incomplete and qantum physics (not its only problem) is too because this is missing."

                                  Georgina Woodward
                                  SPELLING CORRECTIONS, AND I THINK IT IS BETTER IF THESE TWO POSTS APPEAR TOGETHER.THE SECOND PART REFERS TO THE CONTENT OF THE FIRST.

                                  "That is the connecion with consciousness., often but not necessarily it is a conscious human organism' s point of veiw that is imposed. THE OBSERVER DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS , they could be a device with circuits or any device capable of coversion of a sensory input to a different product. Which makes it an obsever and not just an object.
                                  For clarity , it is not enough to choose which viewpoint. It must also be applied to have theoretical wave function collapse That is to say an outcome must be found."

                                    Georgina Woodward
                                    The words " or decoherence" in bold was also meant to be struck through .The term has been incorrectly used, asuming it to have the same meaning as "wave function collapse". Whereas it applIes in cases of theoretical wave function collapse that happen because of interaction with the environment of the experiment . That is not what I wanted to say.

                                        Georgina Woodward
                                        EDIT OF THE EDITED POST, WITH SPELLING CORRECTED AND MISUSE OF A TERM INCORRECTLY SHOWN, EXPLAINED.
                                        EDIT OF EALIER POST;'that is called the measurement problem of quantum physics,; this at what stage in the theoretical proccess the wave function of an object under consideration colllapses or decoherence actually happens. At which point matter having definite form and location, rather than a superosition'
                                        I have crossed out the words 'or decoherence' because, this is a term that applies to the hypothetical situation were wave function collapse happens, in particular circumstances, due to interaction with the environment. I have used the word incorectly as an alternative expression of the term wave function collapse -with same rather than differrent specific meaning.
                                        CORRECTION OF POST THAT FOMER POST IS REFERING TO.

                                            At the locaton of the would be observer is material -Now ,That is where things happen. We cannot alter material events that have already happened, even not yet seen becasuse of the distance of the observer from the event.
                                            Action (happening) and hence agency(ability to make things happen) is local . theoretical m entanglenent is not existing reality, it was proposed as an explanation of certain experimental results found when a specfic threory is appled which has a particular associated metaphysics. Which means that there are certain assuptions that apply in the background

                                            Georgina Woodward
                                            in case you missed it. Here is the solution to the measurment problem.
                                            I wrote the following among earlier posts. 'Mathematics is a language. It can be used to describe the position of something,or distance beteen things, if used with a co-ordinate system or a reference frame. But application ,That is ABSTRACT superimosition, of the co-ordinates or referernce frame on the material world. It is not objective ; That is what is shown by the different findings for train length found in 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies. Lorraine seems to think that that is higher level psycology taking that fact into account. As if there is just one true objective measurement that can be made. This mistake is similar to the posititon taken by the ERP challenge to quantum physics.
                                            Despite giving us Relativity , Einstein wants a singular predetermined objective reality. SR is incomplete and qantum physics (not its only problem) is too because this is missing.'

                                            'Related to this problem, to do with using ( abstract ) nunbers; that are only fixed and unitary when the co-ordiate system or reference frame to which they belong is selected , to describe existential material reality; is what is called the measurement problem of quantum physics,; this at what stage in the theoretical proccess the wave function of an object under consideration colllapses[ or decoherence ]actually happens. At which point matter having definite form and location, rather than a superositionof possibilities postulated by the theory'.

                                            For clarity , it is not enough to choose which viewpoint,. It must also be applied to have theoretical wave function collaspse That is to say an outcome must be found.',''[WITH SPELLING CORRECTIONS]

                                            "That is the connection with consciousness., often but not necessarily it is a conscious human organism' s point of veiw that is imposed. THE OBSERVER DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS , they could be a device with circuits or any device capable of coversion of a sensory input to a different product. Which makes it an obsever and not just an object [continued]
                                            or it could be that the measuring apparatus is applied witha particular orientation that fixes the reference frame.
                                            This is something significant, not appreciated, at the heart of quantum physics.

                                                6 days later

                                                Georgina Woodward
                                                Quatum type unusual behaviour and gravitry of the macroscopic and astromomic:; An alternative explanation of quantum expriments is that rather than a wave function that is nonlocal , a local particle causes a sympathetic wave in the space filling substance of the environment. It can be divided and interfere with the other part if recombined. Too large to cause sympathetic vibration of the unknown space fillling substance. Unknown because it can't be seen,.Transmitting rather than reflecting light. The presece of the macroscopic or astronomic body causes defomation of the substance filling space (the void) around it. Verry different from THE EFFECT OF QUANTUM SIZE PARTICLES. That should tell us we (physics) have been using the wrong model.

                                                    Georgina Woodward
                                                    What I mean by this statement;
                                                    A cooling macroscopic object for example, can be thought of as sheding infra red photons. As they are released to the environment from the cooling object, their motion (The photon particle's motion ) will cause waves in it. Even if divided and recombined, the resuting interference of the waves will not be strong enough to effect the position of the macroscopic object. Only the macroscopic object s condition is considered..

                                                      The solution to the measurement problem is applicable measurement is made. Having applied a certain reference frame or chosen orientation of apparatus . Particles created as a pair have an orientation that they aquire during the process of making a pair, there is no need for superposition, wave function, or its collapse. In either case we are dealing with a ''seen this way '' outcome. The state isn't just then becoming a material reality, appreciated via the forming of observation products or experimental results that can be appreciated via the senses. The state can be described and commiunicated because of the relatioship formed with the oberver or the relationship between the existing orientation of particle and a certain orienttation of apparatus. This goes back to the double slit expriment (Young ). Particle waves were selectedas the explanation rather than wave properrties of the substance filling space. Also able to explain the findings.

                                                        As Sabine Hossenfeldser says in her video. Chaos is a problem for quantum mechanics. This has been known about since 1950s. Chaos is modelled by a non linear equation but the equations of quantum mechanics are linear. The equations of quantum mechanics therefore do not agree with obsevation, It can appear to correspond upto the Erhenfrest time limit (How long there is correspondense between the quantum system and the classial description )but then will disagee. To try to overcome the problemit is said that Hyperion as an example of a chaotic system (being effected by dust and photon particles hitting the moon, changing its motion ever so slightly.) By frequently updating the chaotic equation is replaced by tiny
                                                        linear processs ,frequently taking account of interaction with the environment .This is an example of so called decoherence.

                                                        Georgina Woodward
                                                        The equation for a superposition (values from surface of a bloche sphere or state space) is a mathematical structure represented in a mathematical space called Hibert space not a material object in 3 d space or 3+1 space-time ,Space and time used by Newton orr space-time used by Einstein. They are too different to be recconsiled. We don't have anadequate way to describe the superposition before collapse using words

                                                          Science should not propose an explanation for a happening ,a phenomenon or entity that is entirely unknown in type, not adequately describable by the English languagr ands unlike any thing else in existence. The same happenings can be explained by waves. They are divisible can be recombined causing interference .That interfererence could potentiallyt effect the location in which the particle is detected. It just needs the void not to be empty but filled either with a very fine grained substance, smaller than the particles we know-maybe "quark soup". Or even less structured being a uniform consisteny and continuous. This overcomes the issue of spooky action at a distance , and how light is transmitted without a medium to host waves.

                                                          Quantum mechanics is a mathematical pseudoscience , There is no reason to accept it anymore than other imagined things imagined to have causal power , especially since it comes with so many problems.

                                                            Georgina Woodward
                                                            Entanglement is not something that really happens. it was suggested by Einstein as a way to explain what is an artifact caused by using hypothetical superpositions of state, which only have definite location and value upon measurement or observation. It explains why under such circumstances the second measured particle has just the right state ,as one would expect of a partner even though it has just becomea singular particle according to that theory. Entanglement is not part of the real material Universe. That is the universe of real existing things. There is no need for it ir the alternative wave theory is used.

                                                                Georgina Woodward
                                                                Why do inteligent people who claim to be physisists treat quantum physics as if it is real science. Physics is meant to be natural science ,explaining and modeling the existential World/Universe. Unlike pure mathematics,not grounded by existential considerations. Almost anything that can be imagined can be modlled by maths, freed from the constaint of having to be part of what does or has existed. A superposition is unlike anything known. So difficult to accurately describe with words because, we are told it is, though foundational, not a part of our experience, which words descibe, limited to the macroscopic and astronomic scales.
                                                                Waves. however, are known at many scales ,as is a varity of substances that act as host to wave happenings within them. The substance filling the voids does not show itself by reflecting light but allows it's transmission though it. The double slit experiment of Young is evidence of its existence. Prior experiment has failed to provide the evidence of it's existence. But that is not proof of non existence .It just took time to find the right experimental proof and to understand what was being shown. That the voids are filled nmakes sense. Nature abhors vacuum we are told. Action at a distance is hard to explain without it, The structued interior of particles may also benefit from this explanation.

                                                                    Georgina Woodward
                                                                    A feature of nature is the occurance of fractal patterns. within the complexity ,the same processes are happening at different scales producing simiar looking results. QM is not like that. It asks for a scale unlike any other. Where there is non locality but not encountered elsewhere at other scales. Where superpostions are modelled to behave unlike the rest of nature.
                                                                    Waves are known at different scales. They don't require suspension of disbelief.

                                                                        From Google AI Overview
                                                                        '' Occam's razor is a problem-solving principle that states the simplest explanation is usually the best one. It's also known as the principle of parsimony or the law of parsimony. ''

                                                                        Georgina Woodward
                                                                        The phrase 'self similar is' sometimes used to describe the occurance of fractals or their quality
                                                                        having been identified in a process that generated a fractal or the fractal product.

                                                                          It is unlikely that the very small quantum scale is utterly unlike larger scales, That non locality applies to the smallest scale but not elsewhere and is not known from larger scales; It doesn't fit with self similarity found throughout nature.

                                                                            7 days later

                                                                            Georgina Woodward
                                                                            Yesterday I watched a video of Tim maudlin, in which he was very disparaging of Kants idea that things can exist of themselves and was unsympathetic to Einstein's Relativity needing a priori existence of matter unlike quantum mechanics which Einstein really didn't like, particularly because of 'spooky action at distance'. I would at the very least give the name and where abouts to find the video but I have been unable to relocate it. I have found that Tim Maudlin is in a lot of videos spanning many years which I have also enjoyed watching.

                                                                                Georgina Woodward
                                                                                I. Kant was on to something .He realises the need for an obsever independent material existence as well as what we are aware of, our relative perception, but doesn't really explain why this is neccessary.
                                                                                The necessity of apriori material existence before observer involvemen Georgina Woodward
                                                                                Human beings do not see material things /objects-themselves. They see liknesses ( observation products also called Image realities) which are formed from the reciept and processing of sensory data obtained at that particular place, at that time, by that observer. What is seen corresponds to the brain activity that is stimulated .In particular the visual cortex where the image is identified and parts of the brain where associated memory and learning is located. The sensory data that is used to provide vision is photon particles ,released by material objects into the environment and carried by waves though it. Only when processed, is the likeness seen. it corresponds to the object when the sesnsory data was released not when recieved by an obsever. Thus it is seen as it was not neccesarily as it is now/ has become. In order to shed sensory data an object must necessarily exist as such.

                                                                                    Georgina Woodward
                                                                                    When after release into the environment, the sensory data is recieved by an observer or absorbed by a non observer object varies depending on position of object and observer and other objects in the local environment. How long the photon has travelled through the environment before reciept gives a sort of time dimension to be included in modelling what is seen, as well as the spatial ones .For human vision it is 2d amagamation of images from two eyes each having a vertical and horizontal axis, as well as perspective dimension overlapping the previously mentioned time dimension, which is orthoganal to them. This is about what is seen, not what exists independently of observation.

                                                                                        Georgina Woodward
                                                                                        I often hear it said that we live in a simulation. It is so because the brain simulates the external environment, including mapping of constituents using the sensory data available to it,. Awareness of what is in the external local enviroment sensed by the organism and experienced as sensations ( vision, hearing, olfaction or smelling, touch and taste ) and the organisms endocrine response to them and the sensory data , experienced as feelings.

                                                                                          @"Georgina Woodward"#p168
                                                                                          An observation product generateded by a human sensory sysyem is not a material object, though it may have the appearance of it. It is an incomplete semblance, can not independently function and usually just a surface appearance.
                                                                                          It is generated intrernally although it appears to be outside. the amalgumated hoizontal and vertical dimensions, the perspective dimension and virtual time dimension all pertain to the generated simulation, electrical activation of brain material or, mind, not real matter itself. The simulation is perdurant in a virtual manner, as the parts of it are simulated from sensory data that has taken different times to reach the observer together. The semblance of something as it was can be seen overlaid the material object as it is. The is no reason to assume material objects have parts at different times ,they are likely wholly at a time but have ,according to their type some endurance. Growth, repair and maintenance apply to material objects.