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Georgina Woodward
Georgina,

Are those your own words enclosed in quotes, or someone else's words? There is no attribution. In any case, I’m sorry, but that quote is pretty much a meaningless jumble of big words.

You do realise, I hope, that to represent complex systems requires the use of logical connective symbols, as well as the usual equations (representing relationships, e.g. law of nature relationships) and numbers. What aspect of the real-world system do you think these necessary logical connective symbols are supposed to represent? What do you think is the significance of the logical connective symbols that are necessary to represent complex systems?

People once mistakenly thought that complex systems could model the idea that consciousness emerged from the world-system. But I think that it was soon realised that the things that seem to “emerge”, e.g. in cellular automata, are a completely superficial and non-functional aspect of the system. In fact, nothing actually emerges, except from the point of view of someone outside the system, looking down on the superficial appearance of the system.

    @Lorraine Ford"#p168752
    I THINK, MEANS THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS NOT WORDS SHARED AS YET "consciousness is an attribute of complex systems, organic and potentially inorganic, that process sensory input, whether or external or internal origin into feelings ,sensations output products of the senses or sensors, overseeing function of the system within set boundaries of function, associated with non-automatic homeostasis,, self talk and identity." Georgina Woodward.
    I have been thinking it may be better to replace the terms organic and inorganic with living and non living, to better communicate the intended meaning.

      Georgina Woodward So you consider that this consiousness is a basic foundamental of the universe and that all is conscious organic and non organic , could you tell us more please about the philosophy correlated with this reasoning it seems interesting , is it a kind of pantheistic reasoning like if this consciousness were a reality for all particles of this universe and after the complexity imply the categories and expressions of this consciousness. Me Personally I consider an infinite eternal consiousness creating this universe and so I consider that all is conscious at its level of complexity but of course we cannot affirm, Regards

          Georgina Woodward it may be better to replace the terms organic and inorganic with living and non living, to better communicate the intended meaning.

          What is life? It shares the same atoms like non-living matter, so how can it start to live, do choices? Somehow this feel arbitrary. The main difference between living and non-living is not in the atoms, but in the time, so we must construct some time organization, and we see this dicotomy fades away? The only difference is in time and in amount of choices. We can put all functions on a line if we start from this?

              Georgina Woodward
              RE. "meaningless jumble of big words" lorraine Ford
              Homeostasis-maintenance of internal conditions to preserve and maintain life functions, or maintain normal nonlife function, if non living.
              Google search, AI top result "Homeostasis is the process by which living organisms maintain a stable internal environment to survive and function properly:
              Eg. I am here (position in space).I am in a stable stance, I feel I am off balance, I am too hot, I am cold, I am hungry, I have eaten enough, I am thirsty, I am well hydrated, I am tired, I am alert and wide awake, I am fatiged, I am rested, I am in pain , I am injured, I am unwell, All is well.

                Steve Dufourny
                Steve,
                I don't think that consciousness and pan psychism are in any way related according to my definition of consciousness. I do however not discount the possibility that non life of sufficient complexity such as a general artificial inteligence could posess comparable consciousnss. If for example it is attached to sensors giving it some sence of it's environment and internal sensors giving awareness and control of proper functioning of the host machine, so that fuction is maintained.
                The machine and the human body are different and therefore we should not expect machines to have feelings like our own, generated by endocrine system functioning and sensations exacltly as generated by our brains from in put to our human sense organs. Perhaps in recognition of the differences it should be called machine consciousness. In the way we talk of machine intelligence to aknowlege machines work very differetly to human bodies .

                  There seems to be an assumption that learned experts, of one sort or another, are required to explain to conscious people what it is like to be conscious.

                  The conscious people themselves don’t feel confident to say what it is like to be conscious, and they look to experts, and the experts’ books and videos, to define consciousness for them.

                  In particular, the conscious people don’t feel confident to say that their consciousness has a useful function.

                  Are there any conscious people out there willing to risk saying that their consciousness is necessary and useful, i.e. that consciousness just might have a very necessary and very useful function in the world?

                  No one is willing to risk it. No one is willing to risk saying that consciousness is necessary and useful.

                    Ulla Mattfolk
                    Ulla,
                    life is not just structures of matter, it is energy taking part in many chemical reactions that work together to enable the organism to carry out the activities of living necessary for it'survival and that of it's kind. It is a happening rather than just existence..
                    many of the activities of living are to do with getting energy and raw materials from food and oxygen . Getting oxygen, getting food, processing it to rovide raw materials for growth and repair and energy supply.Thereby resisting the second law of thermodynamics.


                        Lorraine Ford
                        Maintenance of homeostasis is vital for survival. Continual monotoring of the internal environment is used for this and adjustment by behavour ,as well as the automatic adjustments that occur is enabled.
                        Gaining knowledge about the external environment through the senses is of vital importance ; for self and ones kind. PREDATORS, RESOURCES, MATES, SHELTER. can all be located using the products of the senses.

                          Georgina Woodward
                          SPELLING CORRECTION
                          I don't really understand what you are saying about time Both animate and inanimate matter exist together. The living thing can prolong it's existence,

                            There seems to be an assumption that learned experts, of one sort or another, are required to explain to conscious people what it is like to be conscious.

                            The conscious people themselves don’t feel confident to say what it is like to be conscious, and they look to experts, and the experts’ books and videos, to define consciousness for them.

                            In particular, the conscious people don’t feel confident to say that their consciousness has a useful function.

                            Are there any conscious people out there willing to risk saying that their consciousness is necessary and useful, i.e. that consciousness just might have a very necessary and very useful function in the world?

                            No one is willing to risk it. No one is willing to risk saying that consciousness is necessary and useful.

                            So, you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that consciousness has a very necessary and useful function in the world. Georgina, Steve and Ulla can find no use for consciousness. Georgina, Steve and Ulla seem to think that consciousness is not necessary. IF Georgina, Steve and Ulla found a use for consciousness, then they would probably be able to say what that use is. IF Georgina, Steve and Ulla thought that consciousness had a necessary function in the world, then they would probably be able to say what that function is. So, you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that their own personal consciousness is necessary and useful. 🙁 And you will never find Georgina, Steve or Ulla saying that other people's personal consciousnesses are necessary and useful to those people, or saying that other animals' personal consciousnesses are necessary and useful to those animals. 🙁

                              Lorraine Ford
                              Your post shows that you haven't read the responses you have had . To knowledge gained through the senses I ougfht to add other hazzards besixdes predation.

                                  Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, lol , there is a function evidently , but we have not still reached it. The conscious mind, the subconscious mind, why and how, that is the question. But there is a function and processings indeed. The sensory inputs, the thoughts, the feelings, the informations...are all important to better understand this consciousness and this intelligence is maybe a kind of transcendant consciousness where we can create and extrapolate. The adaptation and survival to our environments so are relevant at my humble opinion. We have like so a main function for this consciousness divided in several functions and complexities when the cognitive paramaters are considered. I consider philosophically a kind of main function where this pantheism, panpsychism and materialism are considered but we have not reached these parameters. But if the informations, cognitions, sensory inputs, memories, adaptations to environments are important for the reflection of senses, thoughts, feelings.....so the fact to take choices due to the cognitions seem essential and so we encode in the memory and learn and it is key because we improve the intelligence with this learning and memory and so we improve the choices even in evolving. That is why the experiences are important and this evolution. That is why the fact to be able to solve problems is also essential for the adaptation and survival and permit to live and adapt in the environments because we have this creativity .That implies now the communications and even social interactions all this . That implies now relevant extrapolations possible when we consider the universal altruism and the 3 main possible roads, panpsychism,pantheism and materialsim because we align to values and goals and intentions in function of feelings. That is why the experiences are an important key at my humble opinion with all the parameters cited above because it implies the ethical comportments even and moralities , it is a hard problem to explain physically and reach due to the parameters missing but we see the generality. We are different from mindless robots......

                                      Georgina Woodward
                                      Well done! You’ve only made 3 spelling mistakes, this time, in the 2 sentences you wrote.

                                      No Georgina, it’s YOU who hasn’t differentiated consciousness from a zombie mathematical system, and a zombie brain and zombie senses, zombie-processing their zombie mathematical equations, leading to zombie mathematical outcomes/ responses.

                                      You have merely relabelled parts of this zombie processing as “consciousness” or “knowledge”.

                                      You have merely RELABELLED.

                                      You HAVEN’T said that consciousness is a separate aspect of the world that has a necessary and useful function in the real-world system.

                                        Steve Dufourny
                                        Steve, lol.

                                        Obviously, the real-world mathematical system is necessary. But I think that you, like Georgina, have merely RELABELLED zombie mathematical processing as “thoughts”, “feelings”, and “consciousness”. So, you can then say that “thoughts”, “feelings”, and “consciousness” are necessary; but what you really mean is that mathematical processing is necessary.

                                        If you want to say that consciousness is necessary, then consciousness has to be an entirely SEPARATE part, as well as a necessary part, of a viable mathematical system.

                                        I’m saying that consciousness/ knowledge is a separate aspect of the world, and that consciousness/ knowledge is a necessary part of a viable mathematical system.

                                            Lorraine Ford lol , yes indeed there are specific mathematical, physical functions, , we have understood what you told about the consciousness, knowledge wich is a necessary part of mathematical system, now you must develop with concrete mathematics and a speific formalism, show me please I am curious, your ideas are interesting but need details I think, regards

                                                 We have two processing speeeds -re. Daniel kahnman

                                                They are fast, automatic, unconscious. These are familiar,,repetative, such as motor reflex action that does not even require the brain in some cases.
                                                The other is slow, not automatic but deliberate, conscious The task is unfamiliar, particulrly complex or interesting and fully engages the brain in the thought process.
                                                Slow processing is associated with consciousness ,if it is necessary we do not know though a survival advantage is likely, allowing it to persist across generations.

                                                  Georgina Woodward
                                                  I mean by my last pagraph, slow processing, and resultant behavioral response to reciept of internal and external sensory information, that is associated with awareness of sensory products, products of hormones acting on the body and awareness of self talk. I am using the term 'consciosness' to refer to all of that. The first part is the process of consciosness. The other part is the experience of consciosness. I am not sure if the 3 kinds of awareness are absolutely necessary for the slow processing and resulting behaviour. Maybe the parts are in nature inseparable.

                                                    I think that there are 3 choices for the nature of consciousness, in a mathematical system:

                                                    • Relabelling – consciousness is not separate. Consciousness is not separate to the existing zombie mathematical system. So, knowledge, thoughts, and feelings are just a relabelling of small regions of the existing zombie mathematical system.
                                                    • Emergence – consciousness is a separate thing that emerges. Consciousness is a separate thing that emerges from the existing zombie mathematical system. I have previously explained why emergence is a failed idea because nothing actually emerges from model mathematical systems.
                                                    • Separate part – consciousness is separate. Consciousness is a separate and distinct, but necessary, part of the zombie mathematical system. In which case the “zombie” mathematical system is not actually a zombie mathematical system after all. Knowledge, thoughts, and feelings signify that there exists a separate and distinct, but necessary, consciousness aspect of the world.

                                                    What is a mathematical system?

                                                    There is an idea that the real-world mathematical system can be described in terms of 3 things: categories (like mass and position), relationships between these categories, and numbers that apply to the categories. This is the zombie mathematical system idea.

                                                    But I’m saying that the real-world mathematical system requires at least 4 things to describe it: categories (like mass and position), relationships between these categories, numbers that apply to the categories, AND logical connectives. Consciousness is a logical connective in the mathematical system.