Hi Edwin,

Thank you. I think the concepts we use when we think about these things are so dependent on an implied flow of time, that it's hard to remove that. You mention 'action', as in 'interaction' or 'self-interaction' - to me you can't explain time with those concepts, because you need time already in place to use them, as they wouldn't exist. You say there's only one thing that exists, so it can only interact with itself, but if so, in some sense it has 'moving parts'.

So it's hard to 'get underneath time' in order to do any physics and try to explain it, for instance with a mechanism, because it's hard to find a mechanism that would work at all - mechanisms need time if they are to work.

And I think mathematical concepts are equally at risk of having this kind of problem, or more so, as they're often two steps away from what we need to get at, instead of one.

I felt there were four or five main avenues for getting to a better understanding of time, and explored them while trying to write a book. The conclusion was that all of them, without exception, are blocked in some way. I then looked at the question of whether any of them might become unblocked if there was a fundamental change to the underlying assumptions, and found that one of them, and only one, had the possibility of becoming unblocked.

I'm all for creative thinking on the subject, and don't want to sound otherwise, but I think the way people take time out of the mathematics, and feel they can move things around here and there, is often inappropriate. Incidentally, Huw Price, who takes absolutely the opposite view from me, is also very strict about removing a pre-existing flow of time from our thinking. But he does that for different reasons!

Anyway, best regards,

Jonathan

Dear Edwin.

Thank you for kindly comments

I agree many points in your essay, concerning fundamental question, is very interesting as it gives rationally explanations that focus most imortart fundamental aspects of nature of the Gravity and light which I also have implications of 19th century's benefits of philosophy linked physics namely Classical Physics.

"TK: No. I hope we can discuss the proposition that: all light propagates in local gravity. Photons have energy, hence mass, and bend in gravitational fields"

It suggests that even photon mass was included the concept mass energy equivalence.

Considering the points of your coments I will focus on it more and will discuss later.

". My suggestion would be to focus on mass and charge, in terms of gravitational fields and electromagnetic fields, as described in equation 1 in my essay. You state that "strong and weak force are both a gravitational force." Since gravitation interacts with itself, while the electromagnetic field does not have charge, so does not interact with itself, we have a linear field and an interacting nonlinear field. I do not believe the situation has been......"

In fact this hypothesis is based on idea that is a collectively view " picture in mind" of all scientific theories and facts. Deeply thinking to many possible imaginations considering Nature's similarities and after choosing one rechecked and compared its relation to the facts. Since this Hypothesis is based on scientific ingredients it must agree/confirm all known facts and also recorrect it's interpretation or make predictions. By searching some parallel approaches in the contest I found many related in somehow but focusing deeply on specific aspect. In other words, I believe that all scientific facts are somehow right, no matter whether it's classical Physics or Quantum Mechanics, except of some fundamental interpretations.

I think what is missing is only (interpretation) fundamental theory that compiles all scientific theories into same ground (same basis). Since this Hypothesis is a different view, it's basics assumption is that clustering process of the Nature began with absolutely one kind of extremely large quantity of small-sized particles (photon) and one kind of attraction force (Gravity) as it may agree with Big Bang event, There are some expected communication Challenges it may face and overcomes namely;

Terminological metaphors may make term confussion unless redefinition, example; "Photon is particle that gives elementary charge (e) character and basic energy quanta (1eV) therefore its really the natures elementary particle" may sound quite strange.

It may be far from the Current Physicist's way of viewing the Nature's Physical phenomenon ( expectations ), and best communication would be Spherical Geometrical modelling. I think similar principle that the architect and philosopher, Buckminster Fuller used.

Under consideration of gravitational force as basic with categories;

Linear interaction interactions: electrostatic force and planet's centrifugal force.

Non liniear interactions: Orbiting object( charged vs non charged or magnetic non magnetic) influencing other external particles(electro, gravity, magnetic,........ Dynamics) Electromagnetic waves as Gravitational waves type (dynamics charged particle)

and Spherical quantum modeling of charged/neutral magnetic.... and its detection system (giver and sensor) could be good, for studying and simulating Nature of particle clusters and related effects, such as Quantum correlation/monogamy, intermolecular forces, multi spatial dimensions string theory, I propose simplest octopole magnitetic cube like. Spherical clustered particles of rotating (dynamics). In other words spherical modelling of homogeneous spheres packed could reveal secrets and the beauty behind Physical science Mathematics. It would be necessary studying both matter formations and related effects and relationship between our number sequence, parity and quantum such as;

Electron proton Neutron Neutronstar. Black hole.

Pauli exclusion, Nuclear Magic numbers, DNA cell...

Elementary quanta can be applied to al matter.

We know necessary fundamental constants namely elementary energy E (1eV) for single elementary particle and speed of light (c) hence we can accurately calculate it's proportionality to any particle charged, neutral or both. The ratios of Energy and mass are exactly same, and no any other particle which can have such property.

[math]\[n\frac {M_{earth}}{m_{photon}}=\frac {E_{earth}}{e_{photon}}=\frac {Mc^{2}}{mc^{2}}=3.35*{10^{60}}n\][/math]

Best regards

Bashir

    Dear Jonathan,

    Thank you. I agree with you that the implied flow of time is inherent in 'change', and the only universe of interest is the one that is changing now. You are correct that 'interaction' contains "change", hence time, in its meaning. My comment to Phil was based on his desire for an algebraic 'meta-law' from which time and space 'emerge'. I began with such a general meta-law Of = ff where O and f are unspecified except that O 'operates on' f. Biased by this algebraic relation, we find that two solutions involve a 1D directed scalar and a 3D vector. I then choose these to be 'uni-directional time' and 'space'.

    I understand what you're trying to say, but to cast out 'moving parts' and replace it by 'mechanism' is not overly convincing. When you say your analysis led to "the possibility of becoming unblocked", it's not clear whether you solved this or just became convinced that a solution exists. If you solved it, I'd like to know the solution.

    In any case, it's been a pleasure discussing this topic with you.

    Best,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Bashir,

    You say "I believe all scientific facts are somehow right, no matter whether it's classical physics or quantum mechanics, except [for] some fundamental interpretations."

    I believe you're saying that the same facts have different interpretations, and conflicts are resolvable by the correct theory. I tend to agree.

    You assume that nature began with photons and gravity, but Hertz's interpretation, reviewed in my essay, would view photons as 'disturbances' in the medium, in this case, gravity. If you begin with gravity, the photons will be included. If you redefine the photon to include charge, this is incompatible with Hertz's perspective.

    I did read your essay and comment on the difference in our models.

    Thank you for reading and commenting on my essay.

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Thanks Edwin,

    I've said that neither a mechanism, nor anything with moving parts, can explain time, or generate time, because those things need time to exist already. There are quite a few examples of attempts to explain time with concepts like those.

    Then there are attempts to explain the direction of time, by saying it emerges from thermodynamics. One of several problems with this is that emergence itself is a process, so it's another of those concepts that needs time if it's to function. And it's hard to make something that moves and changes emerge out of something that doesn't.

    Another problem with this is a point near the top of page 2 of my essay, which I'd say entirely removes emergent time, and shows it not to work. A third problem with emergent time is the 2015 experiment, which found entropy at the quantum scale, and time working just as it does in the large-scale world, showing the reversibility we imagined at that scale was false.

    Illusion time is also removed - emergent time is a wider set of possibilities, which includes illusion time, as illusion time would be an emergent effect.

    So this is part of a process of elimination I've done, where I think we can get clues about what time really IS like, by eliminating various pictures that it ISN'T like. That's what my book's about, and the essay is a potted version, with some of that process. And yes, I ruled out all avenues except one, which though also blocked, had a blockage that could be removed, with a change to the underlying assumptions. Then, exploring that particular avenue, and the solution it offers, you get the change to the assumptions that it leads to, and selects out of many possibilities.

    Yes, good discussing these things with you, best regards,

    Jonathan

    Edwin Eugene,

    You had me at Einstein, until you went all Newton on me!

    Find a perfect clock in my essay.

    Nevertheless, decent score. :-)

    All best,

    Tom

      Tom,

      Sorry you knocked me down thinking I presented Newton. Newton had 'action-at-a-distance', which you will not find in my equations. Indeed, one can derive Einstein's field equations via iteration on the 'weak field equations' (although a geometric algebra approach makes absolutely no mention of field strength, so I interpret the equations as valid for any strength.)

      I will re-read your essay and try to comment meaningfully.

      Best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Edwin Eugene,

      I like the way that you present your ideas in terms of a posthumous discussion of physicist. It is fun to read, and you explain some concepts really well.

      However, I disagree with your conclusions. In particular, what seems decisive to me is how you would answer the following question: does your "local gravity as ether" theory make any concrete experimental predictions that DIFFER from the predictions of GR?

      If the answer is "no", then it is simply a matter of taste whether one would like to adopt Einstein's formulation or yours. I would say that it's folklore among physicists that the gravitational field can, in some sense, be seen as some kind of "ether" if one really wants to. It is just that one doesn't gain anything from doing so.

      But if the answer is "yes", then you should simply propose an experiment that decides between the two theories. How you feel about GR's and SR's different "time dimensions" (the word is simply chosen by you to make it sound implausible) is then completely irrelevant. The result will then either be a falsification of your approach or the Nobel prize for you.

      Best regards,

      Markus

        Edwin Eugene,

        I didn't mean to knock you down. Sorry if I did.

        In any case, it's a matter of concept, not equations. "Time flows equably ..." is Newtonian. "the fundamental nature of time as universal simultaneity" is equivalent to Newton, nonlocal or not.

        Einstein/Lorentz time dilation and length contraction are physically real, because spacetime is physically real, and they manifest locally because they are measured relative to local conditions. This does nothing to Einstein's perfect clock, however, which is synchronized with the initial condition and continuing to any later time.

        Best,

        Tom

        Tom,

        You state your beliefs clearly, but you don't address any arguments in my essay. Obviously before writing this essay I understood that it would step on many's beliefs. That's just the way it goes.

        Best,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear Markus,

        Thanks for reading and commenting.

        The answer (briefly mentioned on page 9) is yes: the "local gravity as ether" does make concrete experimental predictions that differ from the predictions of SR. It is an axiom of special relativity that one cannot measure the velocity of any inertial frame (such as the railway car) from within the inertial frame itself. According to my theory, one can do so and I have designed an experiment to do just this.

        I do not understand how one can add a new universal time dimension, t', to a new inertial reference frame, and not think of it as a new 'time dimension', but as you say, this is terminology. Physicists have a way of sweeping problems under the rug. For example, Einstein's time dilation is symmetric in nature, but in reality (GPS) it is not.

        Best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Edwin Eugene,

        The central concept of Einstein's theory is a belief?

        Best,

        Tom

        Tom,

        Yes -- a mistaken belief. But your question indicates why you got nothing from my essay, as you seem not to accept the possibility that your belief can be wrong. I don't wish to argue beliefs, so there's nowhere to go from here. As Markus notes in the following comment, an experiment would be appropriate, and as I answered him, I do have an experiment to propose.

        Best,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Ed,

        I have long thought that a covariant form of gravitation in which energy density distribution in inertial domains, interacting with each other, could be found that corresponds with results of GR. Having said that, what do you mean that, "Einstein's time dilation is symmetric in nature, but in reality (GPS) it is not." How do you understand the LT to figure into the assemblage of several kinds of maths that is the computational devise called General Relativity? And how was GR applied to the orbitals assigned to GPS satellites which were launched and are continually controlled using Newtonian mechanics? please - jrc

        Edwin Eugene,

        My program is experimentally-based, too, with an experiment already proposed.

        Best,

        Tom

        Hi jrc,

        We agree (in principle) on your first sentence re: energy density distribution. Let me address your question about the failure of Einstein's 'space-time symmetry', in which "your clock runs slower than mine, while my clock runs more slowly than yours." This is supposed to be 'observer-dependent' as either can be the "rest frame". Thus, the GPS ground station will see the satellite clocks running slower, while the satellite should see the ground state clock as running slower. This does not happen! The ground state is always the fastest clock. This agrees with my energy-time interpretation of SR, in which clock rates are viewed as energy state dependent and are asymmetrical, but contradicts Einstein's 'space-time symmetry'. The ground station clocks have no "energy state changes" - they are in the 'rest frame' established by local gravity and do not move. The satellite clocks start on the launchpad and experience significant energy state changes to achieve 'escape velocity'. They always run 'slower' then the ground station.

        [Note: I am separating SR velocity-dependent time-dilation from GR's gravity-dependent dilation as the asymmetry in question violates SR.]

        Thanks for your question and for giving my essay serious thought.

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Thanks for the response Ed,

        I understand your argument as being that the onboard clock mechanism, the oscillation rate of Cesium atoms, is altered in relation to the earth clock by the momentum imparted by acceleration to escape velocity. This would then reflect as you propose that the earth clock is stable in the local inertial frame and the sat-clock slow due to its orbit maintaining the momentum load on the Cesium.

        So then the next question is; what in the 45,000 nanosecond/day advancing rate of the sat-clock at its orbital distance. The sum of the lag and lead results in the onboard clock registering 38,000 nanosecond/day ahead of earth time, and of course has to be continuously compensated to within a 50 nanosecond window. If the gravitational force due to energy density interaction, causes the Cesium to vibrate more rapidly, would that shed momentum over time? jrc

        jrc,

        Your first paragraph is essentially correct. Your second paragraph shows that you understand some of the mechanics.

        The gravitational effect makes the satellite clock run faster, the special relativity effect makes it run slower. In essence, since in my theory the 'clock' is counting cycles, not measuring time, in GPS the counts are adjusted to make all clocks run at a common time, which Phipps calls 'collective time'. Having understood what they're doing, I have not delved into the details that you ask for, and it's not immediately obvious to me where variations enter the picture. The main point is that the clock 'adjustments' are always based on the ground clock running the fastest, which violates Einstein's special relativistic 'space-time symmetry' and validates my energy-time approach.

        Going out this evening, so will be off-line.

        Best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Have a good time, Doc,

        I have looked at it from a perspective of having a consistent unitary field rationale, but then the complexity that immediately evolves in considering even small numbers in aggregate, require some kind of ontology beyond 'stacking' oranges. The quantity of energy in aggregate fields of specific force densities must also be conceived as differentiating what makes positive from negative charge operate as observed without resorting to "well, I'll just make it rotate". I seriously think that as density characteristics go, what we observe as the earth's 'magnetosphere' measurable way out into space, is actually still at electrostatic density in the aggregate field volume. And probably only of the denser region we associate as *negative* that operates in separation of atomic centers. So I ponder that sort of thing to try to metaphysically develop a measurement ontology that might project as quantities of energy in bulk for the electrostatic, magnetic and gravitational volumes of the entire field. What I found just in a theoretical, background independent, free rest mass; is that smaller volumes in a sphere at higher density, consumes less quantity in that volume than does the variation of density decreasing across larger volumes, as a sphere's volume computes on radial increments. And that's true for any mass quantity sitting on the benchtop in the realm of contemplation. Most of the mass in my computations is in the outermost shell, just at a much lower energy density range. I have no guess at how vast the earth's gravitational limit would be if it were calculated as if in the void.

        Ed,

        Is there an orbital configuration (not necessarily for the Earth) wherein the effects of GR and SR exactly offset each other? If so, does that provide any insight?

        Best Regards and Good Luck,

        Gary Simpson