Dear Bashir,

You say "I believe all scientific facts are somehow right, no matter whether it's classical physics or quantum mechanics, except [for] some fundamental interpretations."

I believe you're saying that the same facts have different interpretations, and conflicts are resolvable by the correct theory. I tend to agree.

You assume that nature began with photons and gravity, but Hertz's interpretation, reviewed in my essay, would view photons as 'disturbances' in the medium, in this case, gravity. If you begin with gravity, the photons will be included. If you redefine the photon to include charge, this is incompatible with Hertz's perspective.

I did read your essay and comment on the difference in our models.

Thank you for reading and commenting on my essay.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks Edwin,

I've said that neither a mechanism, nor anything with moving parts, can explain time, or generate time, because those things need time to exist already. There are quite a few examples of attempts to explain time with concepts like those.

Then there are attempts to explain the direction of time, by saying it emerges from thermodynamics. One of several problems with this is that emergence itself is a process, so it's another of those concepts that needs time if it's to function. And it's hard to make something that moves and changes emerge out of something that doesn't.

Another problem with this is a point near the top of page 2 of my essay, which I'd say entirely removes emergent time, and shows it not to work. A third problem with emergent time is the 2015 experiment, which found entropy at the quantum scale, and time working just as it does in the large-scale world, showing the reversibility we imagined at that scale was false.

Illusion time is also removed - emergent time is a wider set of possibilities, which includes illusion time, as illusion time would be an emergent effect.

So this is part of a process of elimination I've done, where I think we can get clues about what time really IS like, by eliminating various pictures that it ISN'T like. That's what my book's about, and the essay is a potted version, with some of that process. And yes, I ruled out all avenues except one, which though also blocked, had a blockage that could be removed, with a change to the underlying assumptions. Then, exploring that particular avenue, and the solution it offers, you get the change to the assumptions that it leads to, and selects out of many possibilities.

Yes, good discussing these things with you, best regards,

Jonathan

Edwin Eugene,

You had me at Einstein, until you went all Newton on me!

Find a perfect clock in my essay.

Nevertheless, decent score. :-)

All best,

Tom

    Tom,

    Sorry you knocked me down thinking I presented Newton. Newton had 'action-at-a-distance', which you will not find in my equations. Indeed, one can derive Einstein's field equations via iteration on the 'weak field equations' (although a geometric algebra approach makes absolutely no mention of field strength, so I interpret the equations as valid for any strength.)

    I will re-read your essay and try to comment meaningfully.

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Edwin Eugene,

    I like the way that you present your ideas in terms of a posthumous discussion of physicist. It is fun to read, and you explain some concepts really well.

    However, I disagree with your conclusions. In particular, what seems decisive to me is how you would answer the following question: does your "local gravity as ether" theory make any concrete experimental predictions that DIFFER from the predictions of GR?

    If the answer is "no", then it is simply a matter of taste whether one would like to adopt Einstein's formulation or yours. I would say that it's folklore among physicists that the gravitational field can, in some sense, be seen as some kind of "ether" if one really wants to. It is just that one doesn't gain anything from doing so.

    But if the answer is "yes", then you should simply propose an experiment that decides between the two theories. How you feel about GR's and SR's different "time dimensions" (the word is simply chosen by you to make it sound implausible) is then completely irrelevant. The result will then either be a falsification of your approach or the Nobel prize for you.

    Best regards,

    Markus

      Edwin Eugene,

      I didn't mean to knock you down. Sorry if I did.

      In any case, it's a matter of concept, not equations. "Time flows equably ..." is Newtonian. "the fundamental nature of time as universal simultaneity" is equivalent to Newton, nonlocal or not.

      Einstein/Lorentz time dilation and length contraction are physically real, because spacetime is physically real, and they manifest locally because they are measured relative to local conditions. This does nothing to Einstein's perfect clock, however, which is synchronized with the initial condition and continuing to any later time.

      Best,

      Tom

      Tom,

      You state your beliefs clearly, but you don't address any arguments in my essay. Obviously before writing this essay I understood that it would step on many's beliefs. That's just the way it goes.

      Best,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Markus,

      Thanks for reading and commenting.

      The answer (briefly mentioned on page 9) is yes: the "local gravity as ether" does make concrete experimental predictions that differ from the predictions of SR. It is an axiom of special relativity that one cannot measure the velocity of any inertial frame (such as the railway car) from within the inertial frame itself. According to my theory, one can do so and I have designed an experiment to do just this.

      I do not understand how one can add a new universal time dimension, t', to a new inertial reference frame, and not think of it as a new 'time dimension', but as you say, this is terminology. Physicists have a way of sweeping problems under the rug. For example, Einstein's time dilation is symmetric in nature, but in reality (GPS) it is not.

      Best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Edwin Eugene,

      The central concept of Einstein's theory is a belief?

      Best,

      Tom

      Tom,

      Yes -- a mistaken belief. But your question indicates why you got nothing from my essay, as you seem not to accept the possibility that your belief can be wrong. I don't wish to argue beliefs, so there's nowhere to go from here. As Markus notes in the following comment, an experiment would be appropriate, and as I answered him, I do have an experiment to propose.

      Best,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Ed,

      I have long thought that a covariant form of gravitation in which energy density distribution in inertial domains, interacting with each other, could be found that corresponds with results of GR. Having said that, what do you mean that, "Einstein's time dilation is symmetric in nature, but in reality (GPS) it is not." How do you understand the LT to figure into the assemblage of several kinds of maths that is the computational devise called General Relativity? And how was GR applied to the orbitals assigned to GPS satellites which were launched and are continually controlled using Newtonian mechanics? please - jrc

      Edwin Eugene,

      My program is experimentally-based, too, with an experiment already proposed.

      Best,

      Tom

      Hi jrc,

      We agree (in principle) on your first sentence re: energy density distribution. Let me address your question about the failure of Einstein's 'space-time symmetry', in which "your clock runs slower than mine, while my clock runs more slowly than yours." This is supposed to be 'observer-dependent' as either can be the "rest frame". Thus, the GPS ground station will see the satellite clocks running slower, while the satellite should see the ground state clock as running slower. This does not happen! The ground state is always the fastest clock. This agrees with my energy-time interpretation of SR, in which clock rates are viewed as energy state dependent and are asymmetrical, but contradicts Einstein's 'space-time symmetry'. The ground station clocks have no "energy state changes" - they are in the 'rest frame' established by local gravity and do not move. The satellite clocks start on the launchpad and experience significant energy state changes to achieve 'escape velocity'. They always run 'slower' then the ground station.

      [Note: I am separating SR velocity-dependent time-dilation from GR's gravity-dependent dilation as the asymmetry in question violates SR.]

      Thanks for your question and for giving my essay serious thought.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Thanks for the response Ed,

      I understand your argument as being that the onboard clock mechanism, the oscillation rate of Cesium atoms, is altered in relation to the earth clock by the momentum imparted by acceleration to escape velocity. This would then reflect as you propose that the earth clock is stable in the local inertial frame and the sat-clock slow due to its orbit maintaining the momentum load on the Cesium.

      So then the next question is; what in the 45,000 nanosecond/day advancing rate of the sat-clock at its orbital distance. The sum of the lag and lead results in the onboard clock registering 38,000 nanosecond/day ahead of earth time, and of course has to be continuously compensated to within a 50 nanosecond window. If the gravitational force due to energy density interaction, causes the Cesium to vibrate more rapidly, would that shed momentum over time? jrc

      jrc,

      Your first paragraph is essentially correct. Your second paragraph shows that you understand some of the mechanics.

      The gravitational effect makes the satellite clock run faster, the special relativity effect makes it run slower. In essence, since in my theory the 'clock' is counting cycles, not measuring time, in GPS the counts are adjusted to make all clocks run at a common time, which Phipps calls 'collective time'. Having understood what they're doing, I have not delved into the details that you ask for, and it's not immediately obvious to me where variations enter the picture. The main point is that the clock 'adjustments' are always based on the ground clock running the fastest, which violates Einstein's special relativistic 'space-time symmetry' and validates my energy-time approach.

      Going out this evening, so will be off-line.

      Best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Have a good time, Doc,

      I have looked at it from a perspective of having a consistent unitary field rationale, but then the complexity that immediately evolves in considering even small numbers in aggregate, require some kind of ontology beyond 'stacking' oranges. The quantity of energy in aggregate fields of specific force densities must also be conceived as differentiating what makes positive from negative charge operate as observed without resorting to "well, I'll just make it rotate". I seriously think that as density characteristics go, what we observe as the earth's 'magnetosphere' measurable way out into space, is actually still at electrostatic density in the aggregate field volume. And probably only of the denser region we associate as *negative* that operates in separation of atomic centers. So I ponder that sort of thing to try to metaphysically develop a measurement ontology that might project as quantities of energy in bulk for the electrostatic, magnetic and gravitational volumes of the entire field. What I found just in a theoretical, background independent, free rest mass; is that smaller volumes in a sphere at higher density, consumes less quantity in that volume than does the variation of density decreasing across larger volumes, as a sphere's volume computes on radial increments. And that's true for any mass quantity sitting on the benchtop in the realm of contemplation. Most of the mass in my computations is in the outermost shell, just at a much lower energy density range. I have no guess at how vast the earth's gravitational limit would be if it were calculated as if in the void.

      Ed,

      Is there an orbital configuration (not necessarily for the Earth) wherein the effects of GR and SR exactly offset each other? If so, does that provide any insight?

      Best Regards and Good Luck,

      Gary Simpson

        G'morning Ed,

        I just ran across this browsing for generalized energy density estimations, and it looks a close fit with what you are doing. It is towards finding a scalar term for gravitational energy density in flat (Euclidean) space, and if its on NASA then they take it seriously. search tag:

        https://www.grc.nasa.gov/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/possible_scalar_term_#3

        onward! through the fog. jrc

        Dear Edwin Eugene,

        A fun and imaginative way to introduce the fundamental property(ies?) of time. Bringing popular and well-known physicists together in a situation for a discussion to write an excellent expository essay. thx

        However, we know that time essentially imposes a causality criteria on modern theory. That is best discussed in

        N. Seiberg, L. Susskind and N. Toumbas, "Space/Time Non-Commutivity and Causality", hep-th/0005015v3, May 2000. I would suggest that you consider that criteria, as it is (partly) solved by the No-Boundary Wave Function.

        But there are several other criteria. In fact Karen Crouther wrote a nice essay further delineating the requirements in a modern context.

        Among them is the requirement for finite particle representation geometry that replicates QC/ED quantum state algebra. The finitary criteria is necessary for mathematical consistency, per

        G. Takeuti, Proof Theory, Dover Publications, 1975.

        I explore these further criteria toward a logical foundational formula in my essay, which I encourage you to read as well.

        Wayne Lundberg

        https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3092

          Dear Gary,

          You ask an interesting question about orbits that allow SR and GR time dilation effects to cancel. I would expect such to exist, but have not calculated this. Since the 'escape velocity' is a very special value, I would start there and see how SR and GR compare. I like your curious mind. Often just thinking of the right question is the key to insight.

          Best,

          Edwin Eugene Klingman